40 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

Clearly some people here have misunderstood the term "overpowered".
I'm going to clear things up for you.

Something being overpowered, or underpowered for that matter, has really nothing to do with the abilities and performance of the object itself, but rather the abilities and performance of the things it relates to and is used in conjunction with be it cooperatively or competitively.



If we take MWO for instance, when someone says that mech X is overpowered it means that the mech in question is in some regard performing better than most or all other mechs, on average.
The average bit is the important one, it's important to stress this as this seems to be what a bunch of people don't understand.
So when someone says that mech x is overpowered there is very seldom someone saying that the mech in question is bad or average, pretty much everyone agrees that the mech is quite good.
However there is usually much disagreement on whether or not it is overpowered, this IMO comes partly from some people misunderstanding what overpowered means, some will say:
- "No, it's not OP because I die in it as much as any other mech".
- "It's not OP because I see people doing less than 100 damage in them here and there."
- "It's not OP because I can do just as well in mech Y."
None of those arguments invalidates the claim that mech X is OP because overpowered doesn't mean automatic win or invincibility or that terribads suddenly become T1 superstars, no, it just means that on average mech X is performing better in some regard than most or all other mechs, enough so that it gives the player in such a mech an advantage over other players.
It might not be visible in all matches and in all situations, but (again) on average over several matches mech X comes out with better K/D or higher damage output or less deaths, or something else so that a pattern emerges that this mech is clearly better than other mechs.

Balanced mechs are the ones within the range where they can still be a little better or a little worse than other balanced mechs but in which player skill or tactical situation is always a larger difference than the abilities and performance of the mech.

Overpowered mechs are those that stick out as performing better than most mechs and as such gives an advantage to the player in many situations which in turn can in some degree make up for player skill.

[BLOOD WOLF]

oooohhh you people love their OP mechs. As a matter of fact they love them so much they don't want anything to be done about them because it will ruin their "fun"

anyways that is what they are looking at on the PTS currently I think. Much more about weapons and which ones fall on the balance sheet. Mechs or weapons that over-preform objectively and the statistics that support it should be balanced. no second thoughts about it.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 26 September 2016 - 04:12 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Yellonet, on 26 September 2016 - 04:07 AM, said:

If we take MWO for instance, when someone says that mech X is overpowered it means that the mech in question is in some regard performing better than most or all other mechs, on average.

With what build? ... With any build you put on said mech? Somehow I don't think so. A question arises ... is this a matter of a mech being OP or a certain combination of factors non-related to the mech itself that makes it OP?

There isn't a single mech (and never was) in MWO that is OP as is.

[Bud Crue]

We can only look to the leader boards to calculate the averages that Yellownet is looking for. But those averages are based on incomplete data as we have no idea what builds are being used (See PhoenixFire's post above), if they occurred as part of a team vs solo queue, etc. Any comparison of that data is inherently incomplete as well. Only PGI can provide that fuller picture. We can only have faith that they make balance decisions based on that more complete data (stop laughing).

With that reality in mind, we can conclude from their previous multiple nerfs of mechs like the Marauder Bounty Hunter, The Quickdraws, and other mechs nerfed over the last year, that they were nerfed because PGI's more compete data showed those mechs to be OP compared to the average. We must also conclude that their more complete data shows that a mechs, such as the Kodiak 3 is just fine.

Or we can conclude that they just don't give a damn. That's always a possibility too.

Edited by Bud Crue, 26 September 2016 - 04:37 AM.

[LordNothing]

i notice that once a mech or weapon has a reputation for being op/up, it tends to stick with it no matter what balance changes are made to rectify it. people were calling the oxide op for a long time, even bought one to see what the fuss was about, then the nerfs came. people still called it op for weeks after that.

i think the kodiak 3 is in that kind of limbo state right now. the quad 10 build has been nerfed into the ground thanks to the uac10 nerf. in fact that nerf is making single and dual 10 builds on other clan mechs (that were totally not op) a little bit warmer than they need to be. when you combine a large ballistic alpha or dps with a mech that goes 60+ and it has armor, you are going to have a recipe for op. unless of course double tapping all those uac10s twice shuts you down. quad 5 is still strong, as is gauss+ppc, or my quad guass slowdiak. but i dont think its as op as it was when it was released.

[Yellonet]

LordNothing, on 26 September 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

i notice that once a mech or weapon has a reputation for being op/up, it tends to stick with it no matter what balance changes are made to rectify it. people were calling the oxide op for a long time, even bought one to see what the fuss was about, then the nerfs came. people still called it op for weeks after that.

i think the kodiak 3 is in that kind of limbo state right now. the quad 10 build has been nerfed into the ground thanks to the uac10 nerf. in fact that nerf is making single and dual 10 builds on other clan mechs (that were totally not op) a little bit warmer than they need to be. when you combine a large ballistic alpha or dps with a mech that goes 60+ and it has armor, you are going to have a recipe for op. unless of course double tapping all those uac10s twice shuts you down. quad 5 is still strong, as is gauss+ppc, or my quad guass slowdiak. but i dont think its as op as it was when it was released.

That's probably the psychology part of overpowered mechs, if you have had several encounters with a mech that is considered OP and have felt that it was a difficult foe you will likely play differently against that mech in the future, being more cautious and so on.
This altered behaviour might just hang on for a while even after the mech has been "nerfed" until you find out how you like to play against it now.

[PhoenixFire55]

Yellonet, on 26 September 2016 - 05:24 AM, said:

That's probably the psychology part of overpowered mechs, if you have had several encounters with a mech that is considered OP and have felt that it was a difficult foe you will likely play differently against that mech in the future, being more cautious and so on.
This altered behaviour might just hang on for a while even after the mech has been "nerfed" until you find out how you like to play against it now.

Very true. And I'd go as far as claim that the psychology part is 90% what makes a certain mech OP.

Take a KDK-3 for example. How many would turn and run away rather than shoot it back when they face it? I for example find it hilariously easy to kill a KDK-3 in 2-3 shots off from ~300m in a meta Battlemaster while moving, spreading the damage between my alphas and structurequirking like a boss. And yet it is the general consensus among PUGs that Kodiak is OP.

Can't imagine why ...

[PhoenixFire55]

Bud Crue, on 26 September 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

Or we can conclude that they just don't give a damn. That's always a possibility too.

Thats the most likely scenario.
But as much as I don't like spreading around the tinfoil I'm still supporting the theory when they make certain mechs "OP" on purpose only to nerf them when enough people waste their money/c-bills buying those mechs. Lots of examples really ... Wolverine, Dragon, BlackKnight, to lesser extent Warhammers etc.

[Lostdragon]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 September 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

With what build? ... With any build you put on said mech? Somehow I don't think so. A question arises ... is this a matter of a mech being OP or a certain combination of factors non-related to the mech itself that makes it OP?

There isn't a single mech (and never was) in MWO that is OP as is.

The things that might make a mech OP are specifically related to the mech though. Maybe not every build is OP, but overall a mech can have advantages over similar chasis that make it the go to. This would be things like good hitboxes, a desirable combination of hardpoints, high mounted hardpoints, a high cockpit, a good engine for the weight (omnimechs) or a good engine cap (battlemechs), and specifically for omnis having ES or possibly ES and FF and not having too much locked equipment.

When you compare a TBR to a SMN it is hard not to conclude the TBR is just better. The SMN has anemic hardpoints, lacks the best upgrades (ES), all its E hardpoints are on low slung arms, and comes with 5 tons of locked JJ. The TBR has a lot more hardpoints, good options for high mounted weapons, and more tonnage to work with due not just to being 5 tons heavier but to having ES and not having JJ locked on every variant.

The KDK qnd DWF are another comparison where for equal tonnage it is hard not to conclude the KDK is superior due to having more high mounted hardpoints, much better speed, the ability to choose to use ES and/or FF, ability to change engine rating to get just the right combination of speed vs weight, and better defense that is inherent with larger engines the KDK can run. The DWF can do a few buiods the KDK cannot but the KDK has lots of hardpoints and between all the variants you can use all types of weapons very well.

But it all comes down to a matter of perspective. If the TBR is the baseline that all Clan heavies should be judged by then the SMN is UP and vice versa. Same with KDK and DWF, but the powercreep seen with the KDK is undeniable. If the KDK is the baseline then the DWF needs some buffs to stay competitive. Bottom line though, the characteristics of the mech make or break it; mechs that have the perfect combination of upgrades, hardpoints, engine, and hitboxes or even just 3 out of 4 are way, way better than mechs that have fewer or none of those characteristics.

[El Bandito]

Fine, don't nerf the KDK-3. I'll be farming C-Bills and stats, meanwhile.

[Bud Crue]

Lostdragon, on 26 September 2016 - 05:48 AM, said:

The things that might make a mech OP are specifically related to the mech though... Bottom line though, the characteristics of the mech make or break it; mechs that have the perfect combination of upgrades, hardpoints, engine, and hitboxes or even just 3 out of 4 are way, way better than mechs that have fewer or none of those characteristics.

Yes, but Yellonet's OP is trying to get to a comparison based on actual data. Any quantitative comparison of performance should account for those things that you point to as potentially making a mech OP...at least as far as establishing an average performance baseline value(s). It is our inability to know the full scope of the data that makes up those baselines (because PGI doesn't share) which makes us have to fall back to our subjective views of what is OP and what is not. Alas, unless we know everything, we can only make assumptions based on incomplete data and our own subjective experiences.

Which brings us back to the features you list in your post.

To our subjective point of view a mech having all those features is going to be OP over ANY other mech lacking even one. Only real data provided by PGI can show us otherwise, and we just don't have it, not even with the leader boards.

[C E Dwyer]

Well quite clearly the Kodiak isn't Op because I've not had a 1k game in mine, quite a few 900's, or got Ace of spades.

While the Giant GrassHopper clearly is OP, because i've done both in one.

This is all the data you need

[Jetfire]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 September 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

With what build? ... With any build you put on said mech? Somehow I don't think so. A question arises ... is this a matter of a mech being OP or a certain combination of factors non-related to the mech itself that makes it OP?

There isn't a single mech (and never was) in MWO that is OP as is.

I think it boils down to meta builds possible on some mechs being OP, not the mechs themselves. There have definitely been Meta's which left most mechs builds in the dust and only a few chassis' could compete.

[Bud Crue]

Cathy, on 26 September 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Well quite clearly the Kodiak isn't Op because I've not had a 1k game in mine, quite a few 900's, or got Ace of spades.

While the Giant GrassHopper clearly is OP, because i've done both in one.

This is all the data you need

Exactly!

We must assume that the reason all the Grasshoppers besides the 5P were nerfed following the re-scale is because PGI has the the data which shows that they are all OP...especially the J. That same data presumably supports the fact that the Kodiak is merely average. Certainly it is a far below the level of raw killing power that the Grasshopper J had been showing up until it was nerfed.

Right?

Someone just cut to the chase and post the dart board of balance please. It really does fill in all the blanks that this topic raises.

[Mister Blastman]

KDK-3 epitomizes the term. Click to win, yo.

Never have I had so many 1k games in a robit before, without breaking a sweat.

[Mister Blastman]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 September 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Very true. And I'd go as far as claim that the psychology part is 90% what makes a certain mech OP.

Take a KDK-3 for example. How many would turn and run away rather than shoot it back when they face it? I for example find it hilariously easy to kill a KDK-3 in 2-3 shots off from ~300m in a meta Battlemaster while moving, spreading the damage between my alphas and structurequirking like a boss. And yet it is the general consensus among PUGs that Kodiak is OP.

Can't imagine why ...

They can be brought down just like any other 'mech. That's not the problem, though--it is how they literally outclass any other robit I own with hardly any seat time at all. Would I say they spread damage well? No, not really. But they sure as hell can pump it out like nothing I've ever used in this game before (beyond the Dragon I hacked in closed beta to have an AC/5 that fired three times a second... 15 dps. Muhahahaha. I reported a detailed explanation of how to PGI and now we can't do it yay! ).

[cazidin]

Having only read the title and ignored the contents of your topic, I shall now post a sarcastic and possibly mean spirited response that will challenge your knowledge of the English Language while simultaneously suggesting that you are an ignorant or unskilled player. I furthermore shall offer no insight and will completely abandon this thread.

"Lol OP is Clan and LBX crit chance, noob."

[DaZur]

In context to MWO =/= OP equates to what ever last killed someone so decisively they feel the need to demand it be nerfed.

People don't want challenge anymore. They want easy win buttons so they can feel good about themselves...

[C E Dwyer]

cazidin, on 26 September 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Having only read the title and ignored the contents of your topic, I shall now post a sarcastic and possibly mean spirited response that will challenge your knowledge of the English Language while simultaneously suggesting that you are an ignorant or unskilled player. I furthermore shall offer no insight and will completely abandon this thread.

"Lol OP is Clan and LBX crit chance, noob."

Oh I read it, and agree with it, but perceptions will never change, and the only people that have the data, seem to never use it for balancing.

The end results never show any logic, and a deliberate refusal to give out of date meta mechs that dominated once, any quirks that can make them useful, means that Qqing will always be the way mechs are balanced.

[Yellonet]

Cathy, on 26 September 2016 - 06:23 AM, said:

Well quite clearly the Kodiak isn't Op because I've not had a 1k game in mine, quite a few 900's, or got Ace of spades.

While the Giant GrassHopper clearly is OP, because i've done both in one.

This is all the data you need

It's sad how many actually say things like that and mean it...