38 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

"Power Creep" (in a sense that new 'Mechs are stronger not more valuable) can exist if we have TT's Battle Value system and we as a commander can field more than one 'Mech. Just slap those shiny new stronger 'Mechs with higher Battle Value.

But this is MWO where this doesn't work.

[Lyoto Machida]

Hit the Deck, on 28 September 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

"Power Creep" (in a sense that new 'Mechs are stronger not more valuable) can exist if we have TT's Battle Value system and we as a commander can field more than one 'Mech. Just slap those shiny new stronger 'Mechs with higher Battle Value.

But this is MWO where this doesn't work.

I have no idea why PGI didn't use tonnage as a BV type of balancing system...could have left Clan mechs as they were (strong) when Wave 1 came out.

PGI has the data. If a Timberwolf is 50% more effective than an Orion, you make the TW "weigh" 112.5 tons for matchmaking purposes, while an Orion weighs 75 still. Not sure if/how this would work for QP but in CW, the Clans might have a 250 ton drop deck, while the IS gets 375 ton one as an example. Maybe make the IS take 6 mechs instead of 4 to keep the average weight down or something.

Maybe there's a blatantly obvious reason this wouldn't work but you guys can feel free to point it out...

[Felicitatem Parco]

Lyoto Machida, on 28 September 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

I have no idea why PGI didn't use tonnage as a BV type of balancing system...could have left Clan mechs as they were (strong) when Wave 1 came out.

PGI has the data. If a Timberwolf is 50% more effective than an Orion, you make the TW "weigh" 112.5 tons for matchmaking purposes, while an Orion weighs 75 still. Not sure if/how this would work for QP but in CW, the Clans might have a 250 ton drop deck, while the IS gets 375 ton one as an example. Maybe make the IS take 6 mechs instead of 4 to keep the average weight down or something.

Maybe there's a blatantly obvious reason this wouldn't work but you guys can feel free to point it out...

You are suggesting that Clan Mechs should be better and more fun to play than IS Mechs. That is a blatant failing because nobody would want to play those crappy IS Mechs

[Jackal Noble]

Oh god don't turn this into an IS vs clan thing, I understand it is easy to do. Can we avoid that old cliche'.
People will always want to play inner sphere, always. Just as there are always gonna be clanners. Or rebels. Or loyalist, or however you coin it. The appeal is the idea that there are two different sides that compete against each other.
The term power creep can be applied to any one side and not necessarily mean the historically superior side. MWO clearly shows, in the sake of balance, that lore means squat. Fine and well.

But at least bring some lore to the game if not content, it's easy, not hard, requires little to no programming.

Depth for 2016

[FalconerGray]

Prosperity Park, on 28 September 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

You are suggesting that Clan Mechs should be better and more fun to play than IS Mechs. That is a blatant failing because nobody would want to play those crappy IS Mechs

You are forgiven for thinking so small scale, but if we had the game this IP deserved from the start things like this would be a complete and utter non-issue.

[El Bandito]

Clearest definition of powercreep can be seen when the Invasion 1 Clan mechs dropped and overnight Victors and Highlanders disappeared.

[DaZur]

While I get and appreciate why power-creep is viewed negatively,... At the same token it needs to be understood it's inevitable.

Be it weapons or mechs or technology. The reality is its neigh impossible to avoid a certain level of obsolescence when new things are introduced to the game naturally (read: without buffing).

We can wax poetically how wonderful it would be if this wasn't the case but the core logic of "new" kind'a infers "better".

Edited by DaZur, 28 September 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Prosperity Park, on 28 September 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

You are suggesting that Clan Mechs should be better and more fun to play than IS Mechs. That is a blatant failing because nobody would want to play those crappy IS Mechs

Better is one thing...more fun is subjective. I've got almost 200 mechs now, have the Invasion/Wave 1 mechs+EBJs and am a Kuritan loyalist. I almost never play CW and since I mainly play QP, one could assume that I'd play Clan mechs since I'm not limited in that mode. However, I rarely touch my Clan mechs these days and still haven't mastered all of my Wave 1 mechs.

Personally, I just don't enjoy the mechanics behind them as much as the IS mechs...which is why IS and Clans shouldn't be some homogenized thing. They should each have unique aspects to their gameplay to differentiate their styles. Not everyone is a min/maxer in this game and not everyone will choose to drive a Clan mech. Focus fire is still a thing, regardless if Clan mechs were more powerful than they are now. It's not like they can carry more armor than IS mechs. Besides...the IS players would still have a tonnage advantage and you could also add some sort of c-bill bonus modifier for IS players if the numbers were really that out of whack between IS and Clan numbers.

But, we all know that nothing major is going to happen to this game any time soon so debating all this is really a waste of our time and energy for the most part.

[Chuck Jager]

Rock Roller, on 28 September 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

So like I suspected no game is great at this. I do understand the issues it brings up. How do we advance as a game with new content but make it work. My main point is that the game will change. To me complaints about Power Creep just isn't productive.

I think PGI is scared of introducing new content by how much outcry comes from us the player base.

The thought that you bought a VW Bug in 1973. Now you never expect a better car to have been produced in 2016 seems like a very flawed concept.

I do think the ability to add new components and updated models should help keep older units relevant.

Except that the better players now have to carry the VW bug players or start an alt account to play solo pug.

Clan and IS is a lost battle because common sense for PVP general balance in a computer game will never come closer than what we have now, except that the lore folks want to have access to bad mechs which can not meet lore specs to playable in solo pug (not waiting for private matches).

I do believe a real tier system works the best (based on what your driving then your ability), but I have never seen a tier system that allows so much customization. I also believe that we would also need to up the players by a factor of 10 to make this work.

Sadly, I think PGI is doin OK based on what they got, includes their own talent and abilities. They need to draw some lines in the sand and move on from there. The line will alienate many, but some time you got to determine what part is poisoned or let it infect the rest. You can not move forward if you are sick,but chemo also kills many healthy cells and is also considered about 25%-50% less deadly than the original cancer. SO IT TAKES A SMART DOCTOR TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS.

[jjm1]

Super. Mega. Nerf. Hammer.

It has the power to balance games and infuriate the metards.

--

The lore is already out the window with IS quirks. I say go all out and balance pass everything every month until no one mech is blatantly superior to another in their class.

Its a game after all. I don't know about some people on here, but I like games to be fun. You wouldn't watch a Queens vs pawns chess match would you. (OK, bad example, I totally would)

[Rock Roller]

I can live with frequent balance passes. Clan mechs and IS mechs shouldnt really be balanced. But if you dont pit IS lance VS Clan star you cant really do it. IS units have to be buffed the way the anything goes pug set up.

[Davers]

legatoblues, on 28 September 2016 - 07:55 PM, said:

You are forgiven for thinking so small scale, but if we had the game this IP deserved from the start things like this would be a complete and utter non-issue.

There isn't much point discussing the balance of games that don't exist.

[DrxAbstract]

[Ghogiel]

RestosIII, on 28 September 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

New mechs/=/new content. PvE and major changes to game modes/FW would be content.

Mechs are content. The game lacks features. Well, it lacks features that are properly fleshed out and/or working properly, ie FW or skill trees for example. it has a decent amount of content though.

Edited by Ghogiel, 29 September 2016 - 04:34 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SmithMPBT, on 28 September 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

8X UAC10 Clan mechs will be a thing at some point. While us poor Inner Spheroids will make do with 3X UAC5s.

but your siggy is at least half full of (secret) clan scum.....

[Bishop Steiner]

JackalBeast, on 28 September 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

Oh god don't turn this into an IS vs clan thing, I understand it is easy to do. Can we avoid that old cliche'.
People will always want to play inner sphere, always. Just as there are always gonna be clanners. Or rebels. Or loyalist, or however you coin it. The appeal is the idea that there are two different sides that compete against each other.
The term power creep can be applied to any one side and not necessarily mean the historically superior side. MWO clearly shows, in the sake of balance, that lore means squat. Fine and well.

But at least bring some lore to the game if not content, it's easy, not hard, requires little to no programming.

Depth for 2016

yes.... and no.

Yeah, some of the old school purists will. But even then, you had plenty enough munchkin gamers who pretty much revolted until they could put clan tech on their favorite IS Mech. And even the majority of the "old guard" will give up after enough seal clubbings.

And the majority of playerbase? Not oldschool grognards. Most of those were chased off and sent to island exile in 2013. So if 90% of your playerbase has zero rose colored reasons to gravitate toward IS? Sure a few people will play them for a bit out of curiosity, but that will be short lived. The rest? Path of least resistance. It's just nature.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 September 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 September 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

...
And the majority of playerbase? Not oldschool grognards. Most of those were chased off and sent to island exile in 2013. So if 90% of your playerbase has zero rose colored reasons to gravitate toward IS? Sure a few people will play them for a bit out of curiosity, but that will be short lived. The rest? Path of least resistance. It's just nature.

That's why I support new tech being introduced. It will give IS new shinies which will hopefully attract more people to buy IS 'Mechs.

[FalconerGray]

Davers, on 29 September 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

There isn't much point discussing the balance of games that don't exist.

A sad and unfortunate truth, in this context.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 29 September 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

That's why I support new tech being introduced. It will give IS new shinies which will hopefully attract more people to buy IS 'Mechs.

unless Russ' huge announcement today is a 180º sea change from the last year, I don't expect new tech any time soon. And still of mixed feelings since basically futuretech is all but sealing the 3025 era off in a crypt, meaning so many designs will again, sadly never see the light of day, replaced with less iconic IS futuremechs. At which point, one might as well just play Clans, anyhow.