59 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Quick recap on what was changed:

• All cooldowns were reduced and cooldown modules nerfed. Quirks will probably be reduced as well.

• Laser vomit lost one of their only advantage - high alpha.

• Large Lasers lost their second advantage - noticeably higher damage per point of heat, compared to heat based FLD weapons like PPCs.

• Gauss max range reduced from 3x to 2x. This is important because Gauss is now much worse at what it supposed to be good at AND it has low dps. FLD and velocity are still there though, but will it be enough?

• You can now fire 3 PPCs simultaneously.

• cERPPC doesn't pair well with other weapons due to odd "ghost energy" draw value

• U/AC5s cooldown nefed further, it has more or less the same dps as U/AC2 now.

• UAC5s now have higher jam chance and slightly higher jam duration

• UAC2s have lower jam duration but still the same jam chance so since they fire more often they will trigger more jam "checks"

• Bigger UACs have 8 sec jam now

• You can fire 3 UAC10s without penalty though.

• SRM spread was slightly increased. This is still important because SRM effectiveness is a function of how big your target (and its hitboxes) is.

So what's your opinion on what the new meta will be, both in pub games and comp play?



My prediction:

• 3x UAC10 Kodiaks (with TC5) and Night Gyrs will remain to be strong.
  
• 2x cERPPC HBK IIC and Nova poptarts lost nothing
  
• Splat builds didn't lose too much either. You can generate "ghost energy" while you fire cSPL and by the time you're done firing lasers you can fire SRMs
  
• Same trick can work with 4x cERML + 2x Gauss Night Gyr. Gauss is no longer good for extreme range sniping (IMO) but it might work well when coupled with cERMLs (for more dps) at mid to long ranges.
  
• IS dakka lost too much dps IMO. AC5s weren't even good unless you boated them in high numbers.
  
• Pub queue might be filled with 3 PPC builds.
  
• Battlemasters can fire 2 ER/LLs and then another 4 almost immediately afterwards but you're still doing only 48 damage that can be rolled and you generate massive amounts of heat in the process. And that's one of the best laser boat mechs that ever existed in MWO. Speaks volumes about how effective lasers will be on other chassis.
  
• And IS LPLs are garbage now.
  
• A joke build, but it might work in pub queue: 8 cMPL TBR/EBJ/EXE, fire in groups of 4, 64 damage total. Yes you can spread damage but the whole point is to piss off people who praise ED for curbing down "laser vomit". That is if you care enough. I don't. I only tested it and I think it has a "potential".

As for what will be nerfed first, my guess is IS PPCs and Clan UACs. Oh and Splat and Gauss+ERML builds will porbably be responsible for "ghost energy" regen rate nerf, you know, just to make sure no one uses lasers ever again.


P.S. I'm not a comp player, I mean, I like to win but still, take what I say with a grain of salt. Hell, I wouldn't consider myself a tier one player, just as you wouldn't if you knew my stats.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 October 2016 - 10:07 PM.

[Razorfish]

Mostly all good stuff.

[Gen82]

As much dakka as you can fit, so mostly just like now.
LRM's like always (not that its meta or even good but people love to boat them regardless)
PPC sniping if you can't boat ballistics.

[Livaria]

I'm just going to remind everyone that this has just been the test server. The live results could still be different than what we've just witnessed.

[Navid A1]

The new meta will be:
boat on the singe most efficient weapon that can pump 30 damage as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[vocifer]

- CERLL boats;
- CDHS+CERML boats;
- CDHS+CERSL boats.

[Taxxian]

Thats easy to predict:

Clan will stay with Dakka, simply replace the UAC5s with 2s...

IS cant Laser Vomit, because of (ER)Large(Pulse)Laser nerfs and the fact that they are allready heavily outranged by the current clan Meta, they cant really Dakka since all IS-UACs are heavily nerfed, so they can snipe and brawl, the latter probably with the buffed PulseLasers...

But on their way to the brawl they will get shredded to pieces by Clan UACs, so Clan wins^^

If the Clans actually decide to take the challenge and get into the brawl... they still win using their new 105kph heavy Medium-Pulse-Laser-Boat Linebacker... which miraculously happens to arrive right when Medium-Pulse-Lasers are buffed... isnt that great?


PS: Yes I am obviously an IS player, but no problem, I stopped playing CW erm FW months ago, I use mostly Clan mechs now^^

Edited by Taxxian, 29 September 2016 - 11:56 PM.

[kapusta11]

Livaria, on 29 September 2016 - 10:59 PM, said:

I'm just going to remind everyone that this has just been the test server. The live results could still be different than what we've just witnessed.

No change since September 16 so... And Russ said that it's better than live, not perfect (why not, Russ? lol) but still better, somehow.

[Reno Blade]

ED is definitely better than GH as it closes all loopholes of GH without any new ones.

While I share most of your predictions, I also look at it like this:
When GH came, the 6 LL Stalker just moved to fire 2x each (later 3x each when GH limit was increased)
now you can fire 4x LL for the same dmg as 3x LL before, so this might lead people to use 3-4x LL and add 3-4x SRM6/LRM10 to the build.
Note: Stalker used as an example here.

Sure we will see a lot of Dakka.
Even the 3x UAC10 can fire a lot, but it will be hard to spam this if there is no Jam, as you will top your energy faster than the cooldown.
You need to wait 1.5s before doubletap and with increased Cooldown and burst duration you can barely get the 3sec recycle.

While this and other boats are still working, it's also easy enough to mix your builds now, as you have to spread your shots anyway.
And mixing in some spread dmg weapons (Missiles and LBX) will provide more dmg compared to laser/ballistic only if you want to top your energy consumption.


I would nerf ACs again by increasing the energy draw to 1.2x dmg or to simple increase bullets per burst.
I could even live with a UAC10 doing 6 bullets for 2 dmg each for a total of possible 12 dmg instead of 10. (example)
Or both.
Just increasing energy draw has the big advantage that it only nerfs the boats but not the smaller mechs using 1 or 2 of these weapons only. (e.g. mediums)

Edited by Reno Blade, 30 September 2016 - 12:30 AM.

[Taxxian]

Oh I think it is better since ED gives them one more variable to balance all those weapons, which is indeed needed!

But they cant balance it since there are to many different game setups, this PTS covers only a fraction of it:

Game Setup 1:
Public Single Player Queue after Kodiak:
Dominated by heavy Clan Dakka, all those heavies and assaults are best killed by Dakka and Snipers --> Clan Dakka rules

Public Single Player Queue before Kodiak:
Dominated by LaserVomit... there where many more Mediums and some more Lights. Dakka wasnt all that good, shooting Stormcrows with Dakka is way less efficient, so lasers where King of the Hill!

12 Man Group Queue:
Dakka is really bad because of to many Mediums and Lights, against 12 good players LRM suddenly become completely useless and with good 12 man coordination brawlers really start to shine!

And then theres Faction Play, you can choose your mech not only for the mode but for the map, some maps favour speed, others favour range...

All those scenarios make it completely impossible to balance all those weapons on a PTS with small group public matches...

[Widowmaker1981]

Reno Blade, on 30 September 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

ED is definitely better than GH as it closes all loopholes of GH without any new ones.

the 'loopholes' in ghost heat are a good thing, because they are the only thing in the game actually promoting mixed builds.

The excuses about why its a bad thing are.. asinine. "It's too complicated" - yeah if you are a complete moron, maybe. This is what happened for me to find out about it, looong before any tooltips were implemented:

1) New to the game, never been on forums, enjoying my HGN-HM with 2xAC5 + 2xPPC. Wanting to try 3 PPCs.
2) Buy HGN-732 and install 3xPPC. Fire them in match. Go.. "huh, thats way more than 50% more heat.. i wonder whats going on"
3) Test a couple of times in testing grounds, confirmed that heat was screwy. Assumed that it was a balancing mechanism to against boating identical weapons to make super weapons
4) Joined forums, confirmed theory. OMG that was soo hard, it used my brains right to capacity. NOT.

Ghost heat does what it sets out to do. If certain weapon combos are such a problem, simply adjust ghost heat (link MLs and LPLs, for example, or just nerf LPLs). Replacing it with E(rectile) D(isfunction) is pointless, and all it will do it give rise to the age of single weapon type boats, given that it removes the only actual gameplay reason to bring mixed builds.

[Reno Blade]

Widowmaker1981, on 30 September 2016 - 03:15 AM, said:

the 'loopholes' in ghost heat are a good thing, because they are the only thing in the game actually promoting mixed builds.

The excuses about why its a bad thing are.. asinine. "It's too complicated" - yeah if you are a complete moron, maybe. This is what happened for me to find out about it, looong before any tooltips were implemented:

1) New to the game, never been on forums, enjoying my HGN-HM with 2xAC5 + 2xPPC. Wanting to try 3 PPCs.
2) Buy HGN-732 and install 3xPPC. Fire them in match. Go.. "huh, thats way more than 50% more heat.. i wonder whats going on"
3) Test a couple of times in testing grounds, confirmed that heat was screwy. Assumed that it was a balancing mechanism to against boating identical weapons to make super weapons
4) Joined forums, confirmed theory. OMG that was soo hard, it used my brains right to capacity. NOT.

Ghost heat does what it sets out to do. If certain weapon combos are such a problem, simply adjust ghost heat (link MLs and LPLs, for example, or just nerf LPLs). Replacing it with E(rectile) D(isfunction) is pointless, and all it will do it give rise to the age of single weapon type boats, given that it removes the only actual gameplay reason to bring mixed builds.

There are too many people QQing about how complicated GH or ED is... but as you said it's not that hard at all. But ED has the advantage that you can see the maximum you can fire directly.

On the topic of loopholes to be a "good" thing because they provide mixed builds... you mean they provide synergy.
This means that you are limiting yourself if you don't use these loopholes to maximize your effective firepower - this is meta.
And this is why it's such a bad thing - you are just plain worse if you don't use this meta.

Now that all weapons are linked in ED, it doesnt matter if you boat or if you mix, as it's equal.
This reduces the huge advantage of the "meta" to very close to "equal" to all kinds of builds rather than providing such a huge gap.

[Widowmaker1981]

Reno Blade, on 30 September 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Now that all weapons are linked in ED, it doesnt matter if you boat or if you mix, as it's equal.
This reduces the huge advantage of the "meta" to very close to "equal" to all kinds of builds rather than providing such a huge gap.

No, no it is not equal.

Mixed weapon loadouts have to juggle multiple firing profiles for the weapons (differing projectile speeds, beam vs fld, lock on, spread, range, etc) and as such are harder to use at 100% efficiency. Since its a multiplayer game easier = better (within the confines of what is possible, obviously), because when playing against equally skilled opponents it leads to an increase in reliability. That is offset on ghost heat by there being a gameplay incentive to juggle those differing fire solutions, whereas in ED there is no incentive, and thus single weapon type boating is the only sensible choice due to ease of control, and thus reliability.

[Reno Blade]

I think the difference is as low as 10% for mixed builds, but meta had an advantage of 30-50%.
i prefere 10% better for boats than 50% advantage imbalance any day!
thats what I mean with "close to equal".

[Aesthetech]

With limited alphas and DPS, exposure will be more necessary and less worthwhile.

PPFLD will reign supreme, with lots of sniping, corner peeking and hill humping.

The effective brawlers will be splat builds to an even greater extent than now.

With a limit of a 30 point alpha without going over on heat, poptarting may see a decent resurgence.

Dakka will continue to do well, but primarily on chassis with high mounts to an even greater extent than now.

PPCs will likely get nerfed first, as people are going to scream about PPFLD, sniping, and poptarting, and the charge system demonstrates well enough that no one has any idea how to balance gauss rifles, so the ammo-less, explosion-less more easily boated system will get pooped on. Clan ERPPCs are probably the first victims.

[ScarecrowES]

I won't have any idea what happens in the game after ED gets put in. I'll have cancelled my pre-orders and uninstalled the game at that point.

I'd happily wish the 20 or so of you that still keep playing good luck on keeping the servers running, though.

[Livaria]

kapusta11, on 29 September 2016 - 11:58 PM, said:

No change since September 16 so... And Russ said that it's better than live, not perfect (why not, Russ? lol) but still better, somehow.

I'm saying this because It has happened before. A hidden agenda is possible. Of course, it still could end up exactly like the PTS but the concept is rational to believe.

Edited by Livaria, 30 September 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[Kael Posavatz]

ScarecrowES, on 30 September 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I won't have any idea what happens in the game after ED gets put in. I'll have cancelled my pre-orders and uninstalled the game at that point.

I'd happily wish the 20 or so of you that still keep playing good luck on keeping the servers running, though.

You know, this could just suck in QP. In FW it might be, you know, epic beyond belief. Like, 10% of the population is playing QP and everyone else is in FW and just having a blast.

Let's see, 10% of 20 is 2, so 18 in FW... Hey! We'd be where we are now!

[Leopardo]

Okay I'll add my 50 cents - ed is crap. Not b coz of idea just how it's done ...
the mechanic....I like the scarecrows idea most.

[East Indy]

Some players will always powergame, but the percentage of players who only want to do that is typically small, and MWO is no exception. Many more players will take the first chance they get to play something that resembles the game on the tin and offers more variety.

Energy Draw's semi-hard limiter on instantaneous fire reduces the gap between not only alpha-centric builds and 2/3-group builds, but also chassis with more hardpoints and chassis with fewer hardpoints. "Better" is a relative term and in this case mechanical optimization will have a smaller advantage, shifting emphasis to aim and fire discipline.