69 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

LordNothing, on 01 October 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

i always thought something like this would be good. but id actually have 3 distinct modes:

locked indirect - high arc, low velocity
locked line of sight - direct, high velocity
dumb - low arc, medium velocity

I'd prefer locked LOS and dumb fire to share medium arc medium velocity. Actually, considering the arc, it would take less time to travel and the velocity probably wouldn't need to be changed even.

[Deathlike]

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned more... as every other MW game has implemented that type of concept (dumbfire LRMs) EXCEPT for MWO. MWO's version is... "why bother? I'm screwed."

Maybe it's time to rediscover some Lostech™.

Edited by Deathlike, 01 October 2016 - 04:36 PM.

[BigBenn]

I think it makes sense... LRM's still have a minimum range, SRM's do not.

Dumb firing LRM's should be more common, I agree. At least IS LRM's, the Clanners have their S-SRM's.

[LordNothing]

MauttyKoray, on 01 October 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

I'd prefer locked LOS and dumb fire to share medium arc medium velocity. Actually, considering the arc, it would take less time to travel and the velocity probably wouldn't need to be changed even.

you do get your missiles on target faster when they take a more direct route. but a high route also needs more fuel to loft it up high and then go into a slow cruise mode, a direct fired munition can put more of its thrust towards forward velocity and less towards gaining altitude. wither way i wouldnt make the difference between slow and fast more than 100kph, otherwise lerms become op in direct fire engagements.

source: kerbal space program

[Mole]

Steve Pryde, on 01 October 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Not really, saw to many games with lurm boats that better where replaced with something else than lrms.

I think what he actually meant by that statement was that LRMs have been made worthless by the crybaby underhive who still to this very day whine that LRMs are OP and keep getting them constantly nerfed because they have a bug up their butt about having to use cover to avoid guided missiles as if guided missiles shouldn't exist because they're cheap noskill. You know, even though they have existed in actual warfare since somewhere near the middle or end of WWII.

Edited by Mole, 01 October 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Mole, on 01 October 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

I think what he actually meant by that statement was that LRMs have been made worthless by the crybaby underhive who still to this very day whine that LRMs are OP and keep getting them constantly nerfed because they have a bug up their butt about having to use cover to avoid guided missiles as if guided missiles shouldn't exist because they're cheap noskill. You know, even though they have existed in actual warfare since somewhere near the middle or end of WWII.

Well, I did like LRMs power better at 1.1 damage.

I think LRMs can be opened up for some cool options with an alt fire, not necessarily what I am suggesting in the first post.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

Kin3ticX, on 01 October 2016 - 01:22 AM, said:

Sorry but I dont see people running around in stock Raven-3Ls to give me locks. Can you be more specific as I am trying to learn how to LRM proper

Buy a TAG and target decay module, and stick with your team mates. You will get all the locks you could ever ask for.

If you stand behind a rock most of the match, don't complain, because you're risking nothing for your reward.


---

As for everyone wanting dumb fire straight line fire LRMs, please remember that LRMs come in sizes up to 20 missile per pack. SRMs come UP TO 6 per pack. It doesn't matter how low the LRM damage is, they will still outclass SRMs. Considering how tightly my LRMs seem to fire when dumb fired, I have a hard time seeing how SRMs would remain viable.

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 02 October 2016 - 12:36 AM.

[Yosharian]

Pjwned, on 01 October 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

Because it's stupid to have a long range homing missile weapon that does full damage from 0-1,000m.

How about we increase LRM missile velocity to 2,000 m/s while we're at it?

It isn't stupid just because you say it is. Why is it 'stupid'? If you provide no actual argument, then you're just shitposting.

I never said we needed to increase LRM missile velocity to 2000m/s so that is irrelevant to the topic.

Try again.

[Galenit]

Tombs Clawtooth, on 02 October 2016 - 12:30 AM, said:

As for everyone wanting dumb fire straight line fire LRMs, please remember that LRMs come in sizes up to 20 missile per pack. SRMs come UP TO 6 per pack. It doesn't matter how low the LRM damage is, they will still outclass SRMs. Considering how tightly my LRMs seem to fire when dumb fired, I have a hard time seeing how SRMs would remain viable.

Changing dumbfire in that way do not help lrms, it just changes them to srm/mrm.

What would help is:
Change ecm to longer time for lock (50%) and less radarrange (?) for the enemys and increasing lrm-spread (50%) (no magic jesus box!)
Make all launchers the same spread and make the spread around the lrm 20.
Make artemis reduce spread and locktime (25%),
make tag reduce spread and locktime (25% = counter for ecm),
make narc counter ecm effect and mark the enemy.

In the end it should look like that:
against ecm fired indirect or without artemis or tag or narc: 50% more spread then lrm20, 50% longer locktime
with los but nothing more: lrm20 spread, normal lock
with los+artemis+tag: lrm5 spread, 50% less locktime
(i dont want to write out all the possible combinations, but this should show the pattern.)

Then let them have a little more speed (like 10-20%)
or a little more damage
or 20 more missileammo per ton.

[Cold Darkness]

if they buff the crap out of lrms so that they are reliably usable in higher tier play, id be fine with 50% of my damage to be contributed to the spotter.

[Hunka Junk]

Mole, on 01 October 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

I think what he actually meant by that statement was that LRMs have been made worthless by the crybaby underhive who still to this very day whine that LRMs are OP and keep getting them constantly nerfed because they have a bug up their butt about having to use cover to avoid guided missiles as if guided missiles shouldn't exist because they're cheap noskill. You know, even though they have existed in actual warfare since somewhere near the middle or end of WWII.

Well, going all the way back to the V-1 flying bomb, these devices armed themselves at distance, not the moment they are launched.

The V-1 armed itself after 60km. Maybe we could give that a try here.

[Uncle Totty]

Kin3ticX, on 01 October 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

LRMs are an entire weapon set in this game and I think the current dumb-fire is needlessly next to worthless.This is a simple way to make them fun.

They should just be able to be fired at robots in more ways is all I am saying. A fallback option of sorts and with a good deal of damage spread compared to what is possible with SRMs.

So. You want LRMs to be given "MRM Mode" then. Why not just ask for the time line to be bumped foreword so you can have MRMs?

[Gaden Phoenix]

LRMs are very painful if used in a team that actually does:
1. Keep locks, the amount of people that actually press R in MWO is ... (no comments)
2. Lights actually do spotting (good lights do this really well, bad lights just dont care)
3. Communicate. LRMs do **** load of damage when team coordinate fire and lock.
4. Lights bring NARC and you actually use it.
5. Some tags the enemy.

So the issues with LRM is I feel, the same issues everyone else has with PUG. Communicate, skill level and willing to work together vary alot each game. And LRM boats need to be more active. Hanging back to take random shots will not work with LRMs against a good team.

Making them MRM, just gives them 2 really strong modes, thus negating much of LRM weaknesses. You think people are crying LRMs OPed now. Wait till they get dumbfire mode. Alot more people will cry NERF (and rightly so).

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 02 October 2016 - 06:03 AM.

[Zookeeper Dan]

Dee Eight, on 01 October 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

I dumb fire them just fine with the way they work already.

So do I, just because I don't have a lock I can still send LRM's your way if you're just going g to stand in the same place!

[MauttyKoray]

LRM balancing in a nutshell (from my point of view) to include balance and better 'dumbfire'

LoS/Dumbfire
-Retain current locked fire arc/speed with no LoS
-Change LoS locked and dumbfire to a lower arc and possibly bump speed slightly (testing required)
^not high like no LoS but not direct either to prevent encroaching on SRMs and leave a niche for direct fire MRMs
-Minimum range of 180m (damage reduction under 180m for clans) retained to further separate from SRM/MRM)

Balance
(Objective, make all LRMs useful without extreme advantage such as the current LRM5 rotary boats having concentrated damage and thus be highly more effective at eliminating targets.)

-Bring in Cooldown and Spread towards a median, around LRM 10 (spread 1) and 15 (spread 2). (testing needed, possibly tighter/looser spreads)
-Cooldown brought to around 0.50s difference instead of 0.75s? (testing needed)
-Spread dependant upon LoS/no LoS/Dumbfire. LoS having a tighter spread (Spread 1) while no LoS and dumbfire using the looser spread (Spread 2). Lock spread based on LoS status when fired, i.e. a target in LoS will have a Spread 1 volley loosed at them even when moving back out of LoS.

[MortZA]

Gaden Phoenix, on 02 October 2016 - 06:01 AM, said:

LRMs are very painful if used in a team that actually does:
1. Keep locks, the amount of people that actually press R in MWO is ... (no comments)
2. Lights actually do spotting (good lights do this really well, bad lights just dont care)
3. Communicate. LRMs do **** load of damage when team coordinate fire and lock.
4. Lights bring NARC and you actually use it.
5. Some tags the enemy.

So the issues with LRM is I feel, the same issues everyone else has with PUG. Communicate, skill level and willing to work together vary alot each game. And LRM boats need to be more active. Hanging back to take random shots will not work with LRMs against a good team.

Making them MRM, just gives them 2 really strong modes, thus negating much of LRM weaknesses. You think people are crying LRMs OPed now. Wait till they get dumbfire mode. Alot more people will cry NERF (and rightly so).

While the "teamwork" thing might be some of the problem, the main problem I have in single queue is uncertainty.

Why bring a narc (which takes up a lot of your weight on a light) when I don't know that anybody on my team with have enough LRMs to make it worth while or that I'd get a map where LRMs actually work.

Group queue I'd be more than happy to run it since at least one of those variables can be accounted for.

[Pjwned]

Yosharian, on 02 October 2016 - 12:34 AM, said:

It isn't stupid just because you say it is. Why is it 'stupid'? If you provide no actual argument, then you're just shitposting.

I never said we needed to increase LRM missile velocity to 2000m/s so that is irrelevant to the topic.

Try again.

It is stupid for 2 reasons:

1) It removes perfectly valid counterplay against LRM boats because closing the distance is no longer a valid tactic if you still take full damage while you're 10m away; light mechs in particular get the shaft and they're free lunch for yet another type of mech as if they don't have enough trouble on the battlefield already.

2) Because of #1 it incentivizes players to bring nothing but LRMs; no backup weapons are needed at all because LRMs are good at all ranges after removing the minimum range penalty completely.

If it wasn't stupid then why don't clan LRMs have no minimum range penalty, which is how they're supposed to be according to lore? There were obvious concerns about clan mechs having access to essentially streak LRM20s when they were coming up for release, so PGI compromised with a scaling damage penalty which is fine.

You don't even explain why it's actually needed, it's just whining from somebody who is obviously terrible and wants all the weaknesses of their 1,000m range indirect fire homing missiles removed, and if you're asking for needless buffs for easy mode LRMs then we might as well increase the missile velocity to 2,000 m/s too.

I will also reiterate that asking for MRM mode on LRMs is stupid for similar reasons, it's just whining for inappropriate buffs to LRMs so that players don't even need to have a modicum of skill to use them.

Edited by Pjwned, 02 October 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Playing LRMs in PUG (and GP) is a skill upon itself. If you can master it, you can do huge damage when the conditions are right.

It is the same with all weapon systems in MWO. The conditions are different for each weapon loadout. But a huge part of it involves the team sticking together, playing properly, communicating and each doing their part.

If you dont do your part as a LRM boat then the team suffers. LRMs are suppressive and opportunity weapons. Dont expect to be the one doing the killing. But aim to be the one that gets 12 assists and keeps the enemy locked down for your team to flank and push.

Also dont expect to lone wolf and win. LRM boats are not built to do that.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 02 October 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[Pjwned]

MortZA, on 02 October 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

While the "teamwork" thing might be some of the problem, the main problem I have in single queue is uncertainty.

Why bring a narc (which takes up a lot of your weight on a light) when I don't know that anybody on my team with have enough LRMs to make it worth while or that I'd get a map where LRMs actually work.

Group queue I'd be more than happy to run it since at least one of those variables can be accounted for.

That's exactly why LRMs just need to be more reliable than they are now, and here's 3 easy steps to do that:

1) Nerf the **** out of ECM; if you want missile protection then bring AMS.

2) Radar Deprivation should be half as effective as it is now; Seismic Sensor was nerfed quite a while ago because it was too good and radar derp needs similar treatment.

3) Buff LRM missile spread so that bigger launchers aren't worthless; don't bludgeon LRM5s to make sense of stupid energy draw garbage. We don't need to have super accurate LRMs that are magnetically attracted to the enemy's center torso, but the changes to LRMs on the PTS are headed the complete opposite direction of how they should be.

[Kin3ticX]

Pjwned, on 02 October 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

I will also reiterate that asking for MRM mode on LRMs is stupid for similar reasons, it's just whining for inappropriate buffs to LRMs so that players don't even need to have a modicum of skill to use them.

HAHAHAHA

Someone asking for better dumbfire and then you say it doesnt take skill to use

tee hee my sides