36 replies to this topic

[Ixiom]

So. Let's examine the current state of CW...

Generally, there are 4 types of games in Invasion. I'll talk about Scouting later.

1. When 12 stack premades go up against 12 stack premade teams, it's great fun!
2. When 12 stack premades go up against PUGs, it's lame for everyone.
3. When a smaller stack groups up with PUGs, they can very often lead the team to victory. Often very fun for both sides.
4. When it's a whole team of PUGs vs. a whole other team of PUGs, it's messy and unpredictable and sometimes very fun for both sides.

The big problem is number 2. For the PUGs, it's a waste of time. For the premades, it's an easy win and one step closer to bonus mechbucks for their unit... but it's not exactly thrilling gameplay. So why do they run into one another? What do they get out of it?

People in a unit can get a lot more mileage out of CW. You can get 'dem mechbucks when you capture a lot of planets, plus the satisfaction of victory, AND statistically, back-to-back CW victories are very lucrative for C-bills and loyalty points. It's also good fun with friends. Most of the time, a full 12 stack can drop within 10 minutes. Plus, you actually get something for capturing more planets aside from bragging rights.

What do PUGs get out of it? When you win, you get some decent C-bills but you need to be winning consistently in order to make it worthwhile over quick play. You get loyalty points, which are really great for people on a budget to get mech bays... but after a few ranks, they become few and far between. Plus, it's really hard to grind loyalty as a PUG, the same as it is for C-Bills unless you can consistently win. PUGs do not gain any advantage for having helped to capture more planets. The success or failure of the faction as a whole has no bearing on the PUG's rewards, which means they are less engaged.

So that means that CW tends to be a reliable and fulfilling experience for unit players... and tends to be less lucrative for PUGs.

There is an exception, but it is forced and remains unfulfilling for many PUGs. Events like Frontline. A chance to win a free assault mech! These rewards tend to matter to the PUG community a lot more than the premades, who tend to invest more money (and time) into the game.. but they're playing CW anyway. So it expands the population of the game mode, but these PUGs may not play CW all that often... might not know the strategies or the 'meta' or they just want to get their rewards and leave.

Back up to the types of games, with a greater population of PUGs playing... the odds of number 1 occurring decrease, while the odds of number 2 increase. As soon as the event ends, those PUGs often leave CW with a sour taste in their mouth and the units are bored to tears but take solace in the fact that they made great gains off the backs of the disorganized casuals.

So the big problem is game number 2, the PUGStomp. This is exacerbated by inexperienced PUGs who don't play CW or just aren't engaged or interested in learning how to improve their play.

So what kind of solutions are there?

1. Separate the player base, PUGs and Units. PUGs fight PUGs. Units fight Units. This could possibly increase queue times for both or it could decrease queue times for units and increase them for PUGs (since they'll be glad to avoid being stomped)... not exactly ideal.
2. A setup like Tukayyid events, where 'attack/defense options' are dramtically limited and drop times are nearly instantaneous. A big factor scaring PUGs away is the sometimes long drop times (30+ minutes just to fight a 12 stack premade in the last event) While this decreases the chance of units meeting units (and increases the chance of units crushing pugs)... the event was populated heavily enough that games 3 and 4 were very common and overall it was enjoyable, in this mechwarrior's experience
3. Make PUGging great again. Give them a reason to play and play well. Engage them into the group effort outside of events. What does a PUG get when their faction controls 1/3rd of the Galaxy? Nothing more or less than when their faction controls 1/20th of the Galaxy. They get more credits for joining low-population factions but that inspires participation more than it inspires engagement and enthusiasm. When a PUG plays a whole afternoon and helps take a planet... it says that a unit owns it. It says that the unit is getting the mech bucks for that conquest, even though some PUGs chipped in and helped. They feel like they participated and helped the war effort, but all the rewards go to the pros.

So which solution is the best?

1 is terrible and tremendously risky. 3 is also risky and very hard to assess. 2 will piss people off but it can also work with some... adjusting to the way CW works. Overall, 2 and 3 can be combined.

Let's address 3 and 2 at the same time. How can we engage PUGs and make them care about CW and thus care more about the game?

Reduce the odds of a pugstomp. Easier said that done but it's the biggest reason PUGs don't play... the second biggest reason being the wait times for a drop. How are we gonna do this? Well, here's an idea...

Make planets less important but overall victories more important. Even if PUGs won 7 battles on a planet and a unit wins 8, the unit gets all the credit (and the MC)... if every planet is worth 5 MC per attack phase and it takes 15 victories to win it... then 12 players playing 15 games to capture a planet receive 5 MC for their efforts. That's 0.41 MC per person a planet... or 0.02 per person a battle.

So if we got rid of all units and made it strictly an individual effort, you'd have to win 50 battles to get 1 MC every 24 hours. Or 3.33 planets. Ain't nobody got time for that. If this 'gain MC by winning' method is going be work, the MC per battle for each person (currently 0.02) would have to be adjusted. Not an ideal situation but it shifts the focus from "Unit Whatever captured X planets, gaining some MC for their efforts." to "Unit Whatever helped their Faction by winning X battles, gaining some MC for their efforts." which also lets PUGs say, "I helped my faction by winning X battles, gaining some MC for my efforts!"

The other option is to make it more of a group effort. Dole out rewards to individuals based on the entire faction's performance. So if we want to maintain the current reward value (0.02 MC per battle per person) but apply to it to everyone across the board... grant each player 1 MC per 50 battles won by their faction during that phase. Except in order to earn that, they need to win a battle during the phase. The counter carries over as well... So if the player was in that faction for 3 weeks and their faction won 300 more battles than they lost in that time, they should be entitled to 6 MC per phase so long as they are contributing by winning at least one game each phase.

The problem with this idea is that this is that makes joining a losing team very unappealing and joining a winning team very appealing. If your faction is doing super poorly and their losses exceed their wins, then there's almost no reason to stay there. Every phase, you're gaining 0 MC whereas someone in another faction could be getting a lot more.

This could be mitigated by giving incentives to players who join losing factions, beyond the simple C-Bill boost. What this could be, I'm not sure yet.


If you don't want to get rid of planets as a trophy or whatever, than make it 1 MC per 3.33 planets captured. Using the above example, if a player joined a faction and participated in a victory each phase... helping their faction capture of 20 planets in 3 weeks, they should be getting 6 MC per phase.

Assuming a player does the bare minimum required to win (1 victory every 24 hours), that's still at a bare minimum 21 games each lasting between 15 minutes to 30 minutes to maintain that 6 MC per day.

I don't have the energy right now to get to scouting, but I would like to address one final thing...

Loyalty Points are jank. The incentive is to join each faction for a little while, get that first mech bay and then leave. After awhile, it takes FOREVER to grind the higher rewards and you can often make more C-bills in one match than would be gained by achieving the next rank. True loyalists are thus dissuaded since it takes constant grinding to get rewards that you'll have already gained in the process of that grinding (mostly GXP and C-Bills)

Why is this a problem? Because, well, there's no loyalty. There's no feeling of satisfaction for being a part of the faction or the community and helping them win....

Whew, that's all I got for now.

[Deathlike]

I already proposed a solution a while ago... apparently not enough people give a damn... let alone PGI.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5317472


One thing that a lot of PUGs seem to want to do when they know a group is in their team is to ask that group to invite them for future CW drops for the day... of course this only happens when they are playing with a good team.

The thing of it is that solo PUGs on their own are not usually in the know on how to do FW/CW properly. This gets exacerbated when people refuse to work together.

The incentive to work together is literally about getting a bigger payday... but moreso a good experience. Most bad experiences usually involve poorly constructed teams when it comes to teamwork (generally lack thereof) and that will still be continue to be true until that "doing it all by myself" mentality goes away.

There's no shortcuts to this... incentives can exist, but a better experience involves being a team player... not just the "me" in "team".

[MazeRunner]

It's difficult to present solutions to a game mode that has slightly less lasting impact than quickplay does.

The main problem is CW (and MW:O for that matter) was never built from the ground up to involve players in the community, leaving us to ourselves. There are probably thousands of really good options, but if the game engine needs to be rebuilt to accomodate them, a company isn't likely to invest the resources unless the return is obvious.
Unfortunately, most people treat this game exactly as it is: a mech shooter that's fun for a little while, and then they move on to persistent world games for something more in depth.

[Graugger]

PGI has stated and even put it in the CW screen that it is for competitive players SPECIFICALLY and that non-competitive players should AVOID CW.

Jeesh, a lot of people on the forums have been whining that PUGs should be locked out of CW since CW was imple... errr I mean added to MWO.

Edited by Graugger, 02 October 2016 - 04:44 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

At this point of the game's life PGI is too entrenched in the complete separation of the QP vs FP, in a game where FP is not the centerpiece of the game.

PGI plans for December MAY change some of that, adding more variety and such, hoping for the best but expecting nada to come of it.

[Tarl Cabot]

Graugger, on 02 October 2016 - 04:42 PM, said:

PGI has stated and even put it in the CW screen that it is for competitive players SPECIFICALLY and that non-competitive players should AVOID CW.

Jeesh, a lot of people on the forums have been whining that PUGs should be locked out of CW since CW was imple... errr I mean added to MWO.

Competitive does not mean they have to be all be elite players. And for many, the FP is was the campaign part that was missing. Sadly it took PGI too long to even implement CW/FP, waiting until after the release of the Clans. Try to imagine CW as IS only first for a year or two, then the actual Clan invasion. Well, cannot turn back the clock.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 02 October 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Vagosei]

Right now there isn't even enough 12 teams dropping. Not sure why but those who are in units who normally would drop need to try to keep it going. Just because there isn't an event doesn't mean stop playing all together. I see unit names in quick play and wonder why they aren't queing up for FW when I know they have a good 12 man team for it. I even ask once in a while but no response.

[Ixiom]

Get the elitism out of here.

Playing competitively and playing with 11 other people are NOT one and the same.

There are many highly skilled players that solo queue.

Besides, why would any game developer go through all the effort to make new maps and a new mode just so a majority of the game's population can be prohibited from playing it?

[KingCobra]

Look OP PGI gave PUGS/Casuals incentives MechBays-MC-Rewards-Cbills-ETC. So your saying to yourself as many others have why did CW/FP/Planetary MWO style fail?

It easy to explain PGI gave Pugs/Casuals great rewards they just did not give them ways to win matches and get the rewards other than join teams. Most teams that form are friends or old gamers they don't like to invite new players its just a fact and when they did they felt it was too great of a burden to train them because they were losing rewards and MC.

So the 12 man premade trains rolled on and obliterated all in there paths and drove away the new and old pug/casuals from the CW/FP game mode most saw it coming right after Closed Beta and at the beginning of CW but Russ and PGI in there arrogance did not split the CW MM queues for pugs/casuals and groups so it just lingered on with one bad patch after another until now its all but dead.

But who cares anymore? there is not enough player base left to make a huge comeback of CW-FP in its current form and with Russ and PGI caving in to the whale groups (AKA 12 man premades) and still letting them seal club the game to death it will not change and nothing anyone here or on this forums can change these facts (MWO IS ALL BUT DEAD)because of bad decisions by the devs.

Edited by KingCobra, 02 October 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Ixiom]

As of this season, there's at least 20,000 people playing in Quick Play and 1600 people playing at least on the clan side in CW. That's not exactly dead. Probably more, unless I'm at the very bottom of both the leader boards.

I do think that, regardless of your faction or the time of day, a full game of CW should always be available for those who want to play that mode. Ghost drops should just not happen... nor should waiting 30 minutes to queue up. Solve that, and people will line up even to get pugstomped... though that should be resolved too.

Here are the numbers from steam. A big hit when it first released on steam, but that's to be expected. The slight downward trend isn't really terrible and is probably still an improvement over pre-Steam numbers. Solving problems like this could certainly revitalize the player base... CW was one of the big reasons I took a break from this game for awhile, and Overwatch ironically made me come back for something a little more methodical and slower paced.

http://steamcharts.com/app/342200

Edited by Ixiom, 02 October 2016 - 07:26 PM.

[DarklightCA]

I have another solution, join a Unit. One simple thing and you stop gambling who your teammates are, start gaining better communication and coordination and get access to start conquering planets for whatever little they are worth. If more solo players did that you would have a lot less group vs pug games.

[Ixiom]

That's sort of the thing, though. Take Overwatch, for example. I play in a full 6 stack group sometimes. Other times, I want to solo queue. Maybe not everyone can get on at the same time or I just feel like playing by myself. Either way, I have a lot of fun.

You're basically saying that in order to touch this mode and to have any sort of fun with it, I will ALWAYS have to get a group together, 11 other people ideally, in order to play the persistent game mode that literally makes up half of the game?

[DarklightCA]

Ixiom, on 02 October 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

That's sort of the thing, though. Take Overwatch, for example. I play in a full 6 stack group sometimes. Other times, I want to solo queue. Maybe not everyone can get on at the same time or I just feel like playing by myself. Either way, I have a lot of fun.

You're basically saying that in order to touch this mode and to have any sort of fun with it, I will ALWAYS have to get a group together, 11 other people ideally, in order to play the persistent game mode that literally makes up half of the game?

Overwatch has a matchmaker that gives you a personal rating and a group rating when you group up. Faction Play does not have a matchmaker and does not limit groups like it does Quick Play.

Solo queuing in Faction Play is like being stuck on a Overwatch team that never wants to pick a tank or a support healer and loves to pick Hanzo but can never hit anything with him. Than being matched up against a organized and sometimes competitive team.

Solo queue if you want, if you find it enjoyable than the more power to you but Faction Play is not a good environment for playing solo. It's clearly designed around units/grouping up and that's where you will have the most fun with it. If you want to solo play than quick play is always available, the gamemode that actually has a matchmaker and limits groups.

[BuckshotSchell]

DarklightCA, on 02 October 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

I have another solution, join a Unit. One simple thing and you stop gambling who your teammates are, start gaining better communication and coordination and get access to start conquering planets for whatever little they are worth. If more solo players did that you would have a lot less group vs pug games.

Thats all well and good, but it gets pricey to keep adding new members to units, and it is hard for casual PUGs to acquire the required skill level to even pass a trial to get into one of the big units that actually drop regularly. Also if you are looking to join a CW/FW unit your not very likely to find them in QP. I'm pretty mediocre at this game, but I've been lucky enough to make some friends in Big units that are very good, but for my own reasons I haven't asked to join them, and probably wouldn't make through their selection process anyway. I feel like that is the boat a lot of other PUGs are in, or they just don't have the time or whatever to devote to team practices and all the other requirements some of the "Big" FW units have. There has got to be a better way for solo PUGs to get matches in FW and there have been some good ideas in the forums, but your suggestion of basically "Get gud noob and join a unit" is never going to work for every one who does want to play FW for whatever their reason is.

Edited by BuckshotSchell, 03 October 2016 - 05:51 AM.

[Commander A9]

Someone's got to win.

Someone's got to lose.

There are no participation awards.

Why should an unaffiliated pug with no ties, no loyalty, no unit, and no contract reap insane amounts of benefits for a non-committal attitude?

Pugs got to realize CW is the 'big boy' mode. When you click 'attack,' you consent. If you want to get the most out of a win, join a faction to actually play "faction" warfare.

Embrace the game for how it was designed: we're all "mercenaries." We should act like it. Or be forced into the dark lonely corners of the galaxy where the MercStar Nomad likely awaits you.

Again, my topic holds relevance: http://mwomercs.com/...enough-whining/

Edited by Commander A9, 03 October 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[Fake News]

decales, colors, and patterns would work.

[Fake News]

i would also recommend tapping your local loyalists for help. we offer all kinds of help to the interested and engaged.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Commander A9, on 03 October 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Why should an unaffiliated pug with no ties, no loyalty, no unit, and no contract reap insane amounts of benefits for a non-committal attitude?

Sounds like merc lite

[DarklightCA]

BuckshotSchell, on 03 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

Thats all well and good, but it gets pricey to keep adding new members to units, and it is hard for casual PUGs to acquire the required skill level to even pass a trial to get into one of the big units that actually drop regularly. Also if you are looking to join a CW/FW unit your not very likely to find them in QP. I'm pretty mediocre at this game, but I've been lucky enough to make some friends in Big units that are very good, but for my own reasons I haven't asked to join them, and probably wouldn't make through their selection process anyway. I feel like that is the boat a lot of other PUGs are in, or they just don't have the time or whatever to devote to team practices and all the other requirements some of the "Big" FW units have. There has got to be a better way for solo PUGs to get matches in FW and there have been some good ideas in the forums, but your suggestion of basically "Get gud noob and join a unit" is never going to work for every one who does want to play FW for whatever their reason is.

Who said anything about a big unit? The big units have enough people. Faction Play has more than enough small units running around that need extra players to form bigger groups and their invites are cheap compared.

The whole I don't have a lot of time excuse doesn't fly. There are quite a few people in units that have a busy life, don't play very often but still applied for a unit, are still in said unit and get on to play when they can.

Also I am not saying "Get good noob" I am saying "Stop being anti-social and find other people that you can play with". There are lots of Units out there that are not good players but they beat down pug teams no problem because they work together.

[Bud Crue]

Give pugs an incentive to play CW?

Fine.

A one time only, 25 Million c-bill bonus for joining a unit of more than 1 person. Reward given after your 25th CW match. Essentially the CW version of the cadet bonus and only available if you play with a team.