58 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

So lets take a look at OmniMechs.

When first announced, OmniMechs has an Almost literal translation of TT OmniMech Build Restrictions. Almost as in TT OmniMechs had locked Armor Amounts, Many OmniMechs had really Low Default armor Values.

And so PGI Relaxed that Construction Rule allowing one to modify the amount of armor on an OmniMech, but Keeping all the other restrictions, Such as Locked Endo / Ferro, Engine & Equipment,

for a Time the tech seemed balanced, IS with their BattleMechs & Clan their Omnis,
a True Comparison wasnt available as Mixed Tech didnt Exist, and Nether side had the others equipment, IS didnt have OmniMechs & Clan didnt have BattleMechs,


But then came the inevitable IICs and other Clan Battlemechs. With Full BattleMech Mech Factory Customization and hardpoint inflation, this was the True Comparison we were looking for, now we could see how BattleMechs Stacked up to OmniMechs,

in the end though OmniMechs that werent already Super Optimized(SCR / TBR) just couldnt Compete with the MWO Mech Factory Construction Rules of the Clan BattleMechs, as Clan BattleMechs are as a base concept, superior to Clan OmniMechs,

so Quirks where used to try to help out under Preforming OmniMechs, sadly this isnt much more than a bandaid, yes it helps out some, but i think some Rules need to Relax or Change, so that all Mechs, BattleMechs as well as OmniMechs can be Fun and Viable,

personally i would like OmniMechs to have their,
Endo Unlocked(for STD OmniMEchs),
Endo / Ferro Swapping Availability
& Non Engine DHS unlocked!


=First Endo Unlocks for STD OmniMechs(NVA, HBR, DWF)=
this is only Available for OmniMechs that have no other Upgrades,
so only the NVA, the HBR, and the DWF would gain this ability,
-
also upon upgrading to Endo, each Mech would gain 7 Fixed Structure Slots,
(3Fixed Structure LT) (1Fixed Structure HD) (3Fixed Structure RT)
this is to limit some Builds and give the Mechs Penalties for Endo,
(no HBR / DWF, HD lasers, no ST UAC20s)
NVA= +Endo(+2.5tons)
HBR= +Endo(+3tons)
DWF= +Endo(+5tons)


=Now onto Endo / Ferro Swapping Avalability=
this idea and Concept came from Lore, but in an Odd way,
the Original Player of Ranna Kerensky and her WHK named Lupus,
Original Topic Here(Ferro To Endo Upgrade Swapping For Omni-Mechs!)
-
this Simply allowing Omni-Mechs to Swap their Ferro upgrade for Endo,
in this case the Slots the Endo takes up will replace the Slots Ferro Took up,
this will allow Omni-Mechs the Option to Switch Upgrades(Lose Ferro=Gain Endo),
wail still maintaining their Aspects as non Upgradable OmniMechs,
-Swapping Fluff-
"as to please the TrueBorn Pilots, wanting differing Upgrades on their OmniMechs,
most Clan Factories began working on Special Conversion bays for these OmniMechs,
however because of how OmniMechs are constructed, Pod based and modular,
Upgrades may not be removed or added only be Swapped, one for another,
this Conversion and Modification Process could take up to a year,"
-
MDD(8.5Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1Ton) +Endo(+3tons)= +2Tons After Switch,
SMN(9.5Tons of Armor)=-Ferro(-1.25Ton) +Endo(+3.5tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
GAR(11Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.5Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.5Tons After Switch,
WHK(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4tons)= +2.25Tons After Switch,
EXE(14Tons of Armor)= -Ferro(-1.75Ton) +Endo(+4.25tons)= +2.50Tons After Switch,
the 2 Extra Tons Can & Will be Useful for All Ammo Dependent Mech Builds,
(Fixed Armor Points Get Converted into Fixed Structure Points)


=& Finally Non Engine DHS Unlocks=
just as it says allow All Non Engine DHSs to be unlocked, this wont help the SCR / TBR but will help some of the Smaller Mechs a bit, as now thay have alittle More Freedom in construction,(putting a UAC10 in a KFX-S LT instead of the RT)
-
MLX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ACH= 1DHS(can now be Relocated)
KFX= 3DHS(can now be Relocated)
ADR= 2DHS(can now be Relocated)
-
besides Light Mechs, some Larger OmniMechs benifit quite abit as well, as the NVA & WHK both Make Huge Gains in their Available Tonnage, this would allow both to have more Space and Room for Ammo if the NVA or WHK decide to Run a more Ballistic Oriented Build,
-
NVA= 4DHS(+4tons)
WHK= 7DHS(+7tons)
EXE= 1DHS(+1tons)
DWF= 3DHS(+3tons)


=Combined=
as some of these ideas overlap its likely that some Mechs will get much more help,
NVA(Endo+DHS) +6.5Tons(22.5FreeTons)
WHK(Swap+DHS) +9.25Tons(41.75FreeTons)
EXESwap+DHS) +3.5Tons(30FreeTons)
DWF(Endo+DHS) +8Tons(60.5FreeTons)


=Note=
This Topic is not a IS vs Clan Topic, and assumes IS & Clan are Balanced,
this Topic is about how BattleMechs are Superior to Un-optimized OmniMechs,
and how Balance Can be Achieved between the two, for both IS & Clan,


=0=(Please Vote)=0=


This Topic is much Like Bishops, but in a different Direction,
(Clan Mech Balance Revisited: Unlock The Bloody Endo/ferro On Omnis)
if you would like to Talk about Full Endo & Ferro Unlocks for all OmniMechs,
please go See his Topic, Thank you,


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edit- Spelling
Edit2- Notes

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 10 October 2016 - 07:05 AM.

[Darth Hotz]

Yes. Thats what this game needs. More buffs for clan mechs!

[Lucian Nostra]

the whole Endo/FF im on board with like in Bishops thread, the DHS issue not so sure on as I haven't looked that deep into it. What I can say though is that I would fully support allowing us to slot additional DHS into Omnimech engines that aren't already full.

[Andi Nagasia]

Darth Hotz, on 09 October 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Yes. Thats what this game needs. More buffs for clan mechs!

um did you read the Topic, because this is only a Buff to the weaker Clan mechs,
which does not include the SCR TBR KDK, so im not sure what you mean?

Lucian Nostra, on 09 October 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

the whole Endo/FF im on board with like in Bishops thread, the DHS issue not so sure on as I haven't looked that deep into it. What I can say though is that I would fully support allowing us to slot additional DHS into Omnimech engines that aren't already full.

im for allowing non Engine DHS to be unlocked, but not Engine DHS, as that would Buff the SCR / TBR,
even slightly, people would Rage about it, as its a Buff to already good OmniMechs,

[Wrathful Scythe]

Am I the only one that thinks that PGI will never ever touch this subject, just because half the population of this game would scream "OP clan mechs" at the top of their lungs while vomiting their innards out?

It's a nice idea for sure but change is something PGI is afraid of.

[Gladius Vittoris]

NO.

Totally useless.
It ruins that little bit of lore we have, and it is totally useless if you cannot also change engine, etc.

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 10 October 2016 - 08:39 AM.
discussing moderation, name & shame

[DrSaphron]

I think your point is well thought out and researched as well as being well presented, once I am home and not on my phone I'll definitely give you an up-vote!

[Darth Hotz]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 October 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

um did you read the Topic, because this is only a Buff to the weaker Clan mechs,
which does not include the SCR TBR KDK, so im not sure what you mean?

Yes I did read it. And I am not sure how you can think that Hellbringers, Novas, Dires or Warhawks are weak and need a buff.

If you wanna talk mechs that need love, talk about the IS mechs that are not Warhammers...

[Tarl Cabot]

I am okay with Endo/Ferro but that is all, especially since the both techs are not on the same playing field such as the difference between the survivability of a cXL with the loss of one side torso vs destruction for the isXL in the same scenario. No need to being structural quirks into it, Clan Battlemechs with their survivable one torso loss cXL have structural quirks.

[cazidin]

Sure, but only if IS FF gets a buff, such as damage reduction.

[Alistair Winter]

At this point, I'm past caring. It would be good for the weaker omnimechs, and it wouldn't help the best omnimechs. But on the other hand, some of the current weak omnimechs would potentially become the best. In other words, power creep.

Obviously, Paul has no plans of giving the Summoner decent quirks. The ultimate solution turned out to just sell "loyalty" Summoners for something like $40. No quirks needed, but now everyone has to become "loyal" in order to get the best Summoner hardpoints.

Also, they recently changed weapon geometry on mechs like the Mad Dog, but ignored the Mist Lynx and its gorilla arms.

<sigh>

[Mystere]

I'm of a different take:

• eliminate all quirks used to buff any and all mechs and just use them as "flavor" between variants
  
• start locking stuff on Battlemechs

Power creep is avoided as an added bonus.

[Cranial Enigma]

One thing that would be nice to add that would help out a few of the underperformers is being able to remove jumpjets/masc on at least ONE variant. This would help out the mist lynx, shadow cat, nova, viper, and executioner. Since all of their variants have locked jumpjets and masc (besides mist, nova, and viper) and you don't have a single option to not take them. I guess I should also add in the night gyr but I do not think it needs help at all.

The only one that might benefit too much from this is the executioner since it can get up to 12 tons of extra weight to play with. While I did originally think that there should be some limiter to the executioner from having this much of a buff, the rescale probably hit the executioner the worst outside of lights and became the tallest mech in the game with most of its hardpoints being low mounted. So I don't think it would be that much of a problem to give the executioner this much love if it lost all of its quirks.

-forgot some with locked jjs/masc-

Edited by Cranial Enigma, 09 October 2016 - 11:11 AM.

[0bsidion]

Gladius Vittoris, on 09 October 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

NO.

Totally useless.
It ruins that little bit of lore we have, and it is totally useless if you cannot also change engine, etc.

[Redacted]

I always get a laugh when anyone points at lore as a reason not to do something in this game. Lore has been thoroughly bastardized, it's no longer a valid reason to do or not do anything.

It's hypocritical at this juncture, unless you're telling me you run stock mechs only, or take your mechs out of commission for months on end for even the smallest bit of customization? That's sticking to lore after all.

Edited by draiocht, 10 October 2016 - 08:39 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Unnatural Growth]

The answer to power creep in this game is NOT more power creep.

Unbelievable.

Even for MWO.

[WildeKarde]

I'm not so keen on this as all we'd be doing it adding more firepower to clan mechs, basically an increase in alpha. The reason endo is picked is to give more weight for weaponary, same reasons as you would downgrade the XL engine on a IIC mech.

We'd be giving omnimechs not only the same options as IIC's and the IS mechs with one further benefit of being able to mix and match hardpoints via omnipods.

This kind of change would probably result in more quirks for IS or nerfs to clan equipment to compensate.
The other option they might consider would be to have fixed omnipods on the variants - may as well throw all lore out at this stage.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wrathful Scythe, on 09 October 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

Am I the only one that thinks that PGI will never ever touch this subject, just because half the population of this game would scream "OP clan mechs" at the top of their lungs while vomiting their innards out?

It's a nice idea for sure but change is something PGI is afraid of.

i hope not, for my topic or for Bishops, or many others like ours,
i hope PGI can be open and take ideas and bring forth Change,

Gladius Vittoris, on 09 October 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

NO.

Totally useless.
It ruins that little bit of lore we have, and it is totally useless if you cannot also change engine, etc.

[Redacted]

Lore? if you want Full lore, see, other Posts on how MWO doesnt follow lore,
How BattleMechs would be much more restricted than OmniMechs are now if lore,

also i can assure you Moderators Moderate based on what posters say and do,
we take every Infraction seriously and no one not Peasant or King is above the Law,

Darth Hotz, on 09 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Yes I did read it. And I am not sure how you can think that Hellbringers, Novas, Dires or Warhawks are weak and need a buff.

If you wanna talk mechs that need love, talk about the IS mechs that are not Warhammers...

the Nova just as the WarHawk are only good in 1-2 builds, more tonnage could give them more options,
assuming all Tech Is balanced, BattleMechs will always be better than OmniMechs in this Current System,

Tarl Cabot, on 09 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

I am okay with Endo/Ferro but that is all, especially since the both techs are not on the same playing field such as the difference between the survivability of a cXL with the loss of one side torso vs destruction for the isXL in the same scenario. No need to being structural quirks into it, Clan Battlemechs with their survivable one torso loss cXL have structural quirks.

IS-XL to C-XL is a problem, right now IS Structure Quirks Combat Clan XL Survivability,
whether thats truly balanced in its current State is hard to say, but that in it self is another Topic,

cazidin, on 09 October 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

Sure, but only if IS FF gets a buff, such as damage reduction.

I could Support this as a Change, but thats another Topic altogether,

Mystere, on 09 October 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'm of a different take:

• eliminate all quirks used to buff any and all mechs and just use them as "flavor" between variants
  
• start locking stuff on Battlemechs

Power creep is avoided as an added bonus.

My god Mystere the River of Tears that would cause,
but that would be a change thats easier to balance,

Cranial Enigma, on 09 October 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

One thing that would be nice to add that would help out a few of the underperformers is being able to remove jumpjets/masc on at least ONE variant. This would help out the mist lynx, shadow cat, nova, viper, and executioner. Since all of their variants have locked jumpjets and masc (besides mist, nova, and viper) and you don't have a single option to not take them. I guess I should also add in the night gyr but I do not think it needs help at all.

The only one that might benefit too much from this is the executioner since it can get up to 12 tons of extra weight to play with. While I did originally think that there should be some limiter to the executioner from having this much of a buff, the rescale probably hit the executioner the worst outside of lights and became the tallest mech in the game with most of its hardpoints being low mounted. So I don't think it would be that much of a problem to give the executioner this much love if it lost all of its quirks.

-forgot some with locked jjs/masc-

im against Unlocking JJ as i feel it gives Flavor to the OmniMechs in question,
a SMN without JJ(5more tons) isnt gonna be very much better than a HBR,
same a the HBR with +2tons, but less space, hard points still a problem?

OldOrgandonor, on 09 October 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

The answer to power creep in this game is NOT more power creep.

Unbelievable.

Even for MWO.

how would this be Power Creeping for the NVA? Yes it would have 22.5Tons of Free Space,
but if your Ganna Run Lasers you need those DHS that we unlocked so no change there,
but if you are ganna run UAC5s you now can, will it be better than the HBK-IIC? no,
all this does is give it more Build Variety and options, not really Power Creep,

WildeKarde, on 09 October 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm not so keen on this as all we'd be doing it adding more firepower to clan mechs, basically an increase in alpha. The reason endo is picked is to give more weight for weaponary, same reasons as you would downgrade the XL engine on a IIC mech.

We'd be giving omnimechs not only the same options as IIC's and the IS mechs with one further benefit of being able to mix and match hardpoints via omnipods.

This kind of change would probably result in more quirks for IS or nerfs to clan equipment to compensate.
The other option they might consider would be to have fixed omnipods on the variants - may as well throw all lore out at this stage.

not more Fire Power, but Diffrent Fire power,
a NVA that can Run 2UAC5 +4ERML(you can make this build better on a HBK-IIC)
a WHK thats safer as it can Store Ammo in both STs or Legs(again not really better),
a EXE with abit more Tonnage to take more Ammo(no one calls the EXE OP)
a DWF with more Tonnage but it secrofices Space it needs Dearly(this is called a Trade off)
more Quirks wouldnt be needed as non of these Surpass any T1 mech,
all it does is bring some T4-T5 Mechs up abit,


BattleMechs are Better Than OmniMechs, thats the sad Truth,
and when we get out IS OmniMechs id rather have these Changes already inplace,
so i can build then and have more fun with them, they hope their Quirks allow for multiple Builds,
if not than they like many of these Mechs will have only 2-3 Good builds as per Restrictions,

Edited by draiocht, 10 October 2016 - 08:40 AM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Gladius Vittoris]

Andi Nagasia, on 09 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

Lore? if you want Full lore, see, other Posts on how MWO doesnt follow lore,
How BattleMechs would be much more restricted than OmniMechs are now if lore,

and this is esactly the reason why we should not want to screw that little piece of lore mwo still has, what do you think?
And for what?
Why do you still write "omnimech" when it's clear for everybody that you mean "summoner"?
And for what? do you really think the summoner would perform better with, what?, 3 tons more? LOL
Anyway summoner it's gonna have 2 high monted E hardpoints, and I assure you, it's going to be very effective.
Don't worry, you'll perform better with your summoner.
Also I see a lot of players I drop with, doing solid numbers with summoners.
So, maybe, once again, it's because of poor results that poor pilots want to do some change to the game that it's going to ruin it.
Nothing new here, we 've already seen that.


Do a thread about how to bring MORE lore in mwo, not to destroy it.

[Baulven]

Gladius Vittoris, on 09 October 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

and this is esactly the reason why we should not want to screw that little piece of lore mwo still has, what do you think?
And for what?
Why do you still write "omnimech" when it's clear for everybody that you mean "summoner"?
And for what? do you really think the summoner would perform better with, what?, 3 tons more? LOL
Anyway summoner it's gonna have 2 high monted E hardpoints, and I assure you, it's going to be very effective.
Don't worry, you'll perform better with your summoner.
Also I see a lot of players I drop with, doing solid numbers with summoners.
So, maybe, once again, it's because of poor results that poor pilots want to do some change to the game that it's going to ruin it.
Nothing new here, we 've already seen that.


Do a thread about how to bring MORE lore in mwo, not to destroy it.

You want more lore? Ok I propose that any time you modify a battlemech it is put into inactive reserve for you for two weeks for simple changes and three months for more aggressive changes such as FF, ES, and engine swaps. Use the highest value that you are changing.

Oh wait, you meant more lore that benefits YOU. My bad.

And yes if the game actually followed lore since it is suppose to be a 1:1 time table the best case scenario is weeks to years for refitting battlemechs. Accept that you can't have all the lore.

[Dimento Graven]

You can make Omnimechs as configurable as you want as long as you do the following first:

1. Remove the free CASE
2. Add a slot and a ton to the weight of endo and ferro
3. Increase clan XL engine size by 2
4. Remove side torso loss survivability of Clan XL's
5. Increase weight and size of most clan weaponry
6. Make the Clan targeting computer as equally useless as the IS Command Couch

Until you do those things, Omnis must remain as they are: Clan 'mechs that can boat the ever livin' sheeeiiite out of CUACs and belch out crap tons of 'spray-n-pray' damage.