29 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

Heads up that this is a classic 'something happened* to me while I was playing today and I want to vent in the forums in the mistaken belief that it might cause the MWO playerbase to play better' thread

I have lost so many matches this week due to large proportions of teams hiding behind rocks and not engaging during the main battle. I and fellow experienced fighters regularly got our team a 3 kill advantage... only to have the team lose the match due to several hundred tons of team mates standing 800m away from the battle, hiding behind rocks, taking very occasional pot shots into the melee.

Dear hiders:

All you are doing is let the enemy fight two consecutive 12v6 skirmishes. It's a guaranteed losing strategy. The first half of us actually engaging - intelligently, using cover, flanking and not yoloing - will inevitably be overwhelmed by the 12 enemy fighting us. Then we have to watch helplessly as you, in your undamaged heavy Mechs, waaaaay waaaaay back from the battle, manage a couple of futile final shots before also getting focused down by the enemy 12v6.

You have tons of armor. You can accord to take a few hits while you are shooting. Move with the group, use cover ... but also keep pressure on the enemy by shooting them! If we ALL take a few hits, while firing back together, we can win.

Russ gave you armor and weapons. But only you can bring the balls necessary to use these gifts.





* This isn't just some 'last game' phenomenon. It's been happening for the past few days. I can't see why the current event would be causing people to play this way. These people are less likely to get a KMD at the last minute, facing overwhelming enemies, than if they'd just moved up and fought with the rest of us.

Edited by Appogee, 11 October 2016 - 03:55 AM.

[Tom Sawyer]

/me hides behind Appogee

[Black Fish]

I see your point and agree with it, but why your team is the one to lose then? How come the enemy team stays grouped and yours not? I dont think the other team is more coordinated or have better skills (on avarage of all the lost games)...
Calling shots over VOIP would probably help but I dont enjoy doind that. I wish I knew how to better motivate players to stay dynamic and not grab a rock and stay behind it till everyone is dead

[Appogee]

Tom Sawyer, on 11 October 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

/me hides behind Appogee

Don't get me started about the guys who block me in front of the enemy as they hide behind me!

[Appogee]

Black Fish, on 11 October 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

I see your point and agree with it, but why your team is the one to lose then? How come the enemy team stays grouped and yours not?

I don't know. I've been losing 4 out 5 matches for the past week... including one 13-loss streak. And that's despite doing top damage - or at least top 3 - and one or more kills in almost every match.

(I got 5 kills and double the damage of the next highest guy with one hiding team this morning. In an unMastered Griffin 1N. But it was still a loss... for the reasons I described in my OP.)

As you suggest, the losses should be distributed more randomly across teams. But for the 100 matches I've been watching, they're not.

I speculated in a thread a couple of days ago that there's still some kind of Elo-style matchmaking going on in the background, beyond the 5 tiers we see, that leads higher-ranked players to be dropped with lower-ranked players in some kind of misguided averaging. Maybe PSR is open-ended and mine is now so high that the matchmaker think I can either defeat 12 guys solo. Trouble is, I'm not Proton!

But who knows. Maybe I've just been incredibly unlucky for a week. Random means 13-loss streaks despite high personal performance is not impossible, just 1 in 8000 unlikely.

One thing is for certain: if people would just fight instead of hiding, we'd all be winning more.

Edited by Appogee, 11 October 2016 - 04:20 AM.

[Paigan]

Tom Sawyer, on 11 October 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

/me hides behind Appogee

First, this :-D.

Second, Appogee:

You make one mistake:
You drop in a pug game and assume everyone is magically using exactely your tactic.
This is wrong and naiv.

My experience is:
Pugs can play very well, but hey have to be coordinated. Not necessarily "lead", but coordinated (like "please stay together" blabla. With some short arguments, of course, not insult). I've won my last Faction Play event by coordinating pugs.


However, if you just storm forward how you think is best and then complain why noone is doing exactely what you do exactely when you do it, the error is, well, yours. Not theirs.

Also, what I never understand:
Using the terrain to maximize the effectiveness of one's mech is a VERY tactical thing.

There are ineffective "hiders", yes, but not everyone who hangs back is a coward.
With the right loadout in the right position, it can be the best thing to do to utilize range. I have carried whole matches by hardly moving, just because I chose my position wisely for my ERLLs.
(I also brawl with LRM boats, if the situation is right for it, so please don't insult me to be one of those hiders now, please)

From my point of view, the RIGHT tactical move is superior, not always bravely brawling ahead.
I've seen countless matches lost because many players aren't capable of anything else than mindless brawling, giving up perfectly dominating positions we had.


In other words...

Black Fish, on 11 October 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

I see your point and agree with it, but why your team is the one to lose then? How come the enemy team stays grouped and yours not?
[...]

...have you ever thought about that you might be the premature brawling suicider, ruining the match for your team and letting those with the proper position fight a 6vs9 battle after you're dead?

Edited by Paigan, 11 October 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[Trollfeed]

Actually I have noticed this happening quite a lot lately. Half of the team or more just goes hiding after first contact and match ends as a complete stomp.

[UnofficialOperator]

Tom Sawyer, on 11 October 2016 - 04:02 AM, said:

/me hides behind Appogee

/me hides behind Tom Sawyer

@Appogee Maybe you should try leading then? I've seen the same player lead 2 out of 3 times and we basically rolled the other team. First game was very coordinated as he took company control and used the map functions plus leading in an assault on HPG. 2nd game, he yoloed and led as the tip of the spear across Caustic Valley's cauldron. 3rd game I saw him in, he kept quiet and it was an iffy game (was either a close game or loss, I forgot.) Usually a simple coord like "gather here" "push there in 3 2 1 "helps a lot, considering most games are pretty quiet.

PS: And you consistently have a very much better win rate as a light mech pilot across past seasons. Maybe just stick to that after event is over

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 11 October 2016 - 04:52 AM.

[Bud Crue]

As a T3 player I see it all. But imho all matches come down to three (maybe four) types of general "tactics" that I see from the enemy, but their effectiveness varies and your response is likewise going to vary depending on who is over there and how many there are. Also (in my case) sometimes (often) your just out classed by a combination of skill and meta. Some players are better. Some mechs are better. Anyway the types of matches as I see them, generally speaking:

Ultra Aggression or "just keep pushing".
When I see certain teams on the other side, I know this is coming. If there are only three or four of those recognized teams' players with mixed random others, this is often a recipe for disaster for the reds, since quite often those "mixed others" are not going to follow the lead of the recognized players. On the other hand if the enemy is majority of those recognized team's and folks of similar ilk, they are coming and they are not going to stop, and you need to get your side ready for their onslaught pretty damn quick. Failure to set up a good firing line immediately will result in your demise.

Aggressive Snipers or "MRBC in QP".
I know that when I see certain comp level team members on the other side, this is coming: Incredible aim and massive damage, on focused targets...from across the damn map. This then causes members of my team to hide in the manner Appogee is describing. If the enemy also has some of those recognized aggressive team folks, you and your blues are toast, as those reds not sniping come in as a group and slaughter your hiding/poking blues. On the other hand, if the majority of the reds are mixed with only a few of those recognized snipers, you might be able to role over them if you can manage to get your fellow blues out of their hidy-holes and push together; preferably on their right flank (NASCAR FTW!).

God Damn Lurms.
You know who these people are. You know how this goes. Certain teams are well known for this and if you can either A) push hard against them right off the bat then this can be an easy win; or B kill their Narc-ers and wolf packing lights then deal with the LRM boats at your leisure. Failure to do A or B will result in your team either hiding and getting taken out by the lights slowly but surely, or watching your team break up into little bands of Rambos only to be cut down individually by focused aerial bombardment. In theory these guys should always lose, but if your team doesn't act decisively you still get the affect Appogee describes.

The fourth and most fun is when you have no idea who it is over there and anything can happen. This has become a rarity however so I don't think it counts anymore.

Just 2-cbills of observation from a T3 terribad.

Edited by Bud Crue, 11 October 2016 - 05:09 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Don't play when its now "morning" or "lunchtime" some timezone a lot of players log in from. because we get people who are only trying to get KMDDs in a few games before going to school/work/whatever, without of course realizing that kills have to happen for the DD part to be calculated... so they'll inflict lots of damage, but not actually close the deal on any targets. They certainly won't hit the R key to lock the thing they're damaging so effectively on their own, lest someone else get the killing blow...which if they only do minor damage...won't award them the vaunted KMDD. I find that about 2am EST the quality of teammates tanks, especially when its 100-200 ping fellows and I'm on the N.A. server...pretty obvious its now morning in europe and the event goal chasers are on. Perhaps you're enjoying the karma of the MM as I am, being stuck onto the team with the morons, as the "balance" for all the good players that got stuck on the other team. And nevermind the fact that the R key info sharing lets others know when their are mechs behind them, the team has been flanked, etc... can't do that. And they'll never release their UAV they're carrying or use the air strike/artillery....since they claim that costs c-bills... (but a team win will pay enough to pay for their usage...and for that matter...why load things you're too cheap and cowardly to use?!?).

I had a game this morning about 5am EST, skirmish in canyons... a lone direwolf decided to FLANK the whole map via the outer canyon (the side opposite the riverbed) at a whopping 48.6 kmh. Dual LB-20X and Dual LB-10X. By the time he engaged, there was I think 5 enemies left, and he didn't kill a single one of them. He did do 600+ damage... but 0 kills 0 assists 0 KMDD. Meanwhile I engaged early in an ARC-5W, only did 252 damage but managed 4 assists and 2 KMDDs and I was actually locking the stuff I was shooting at (kinda have to with LRMs against non-shutdown mech) and others were also as I brought a lot of LRMs indirectly from 1000+ meters to help them get the killing blow parts done. I KNOW one of my KMDDs were a jenner and then a shadow cat I engaged danger close with the quad SRM4s (who were both none too happy to find out I wasn't a pure LRM boat). Someone else on the team closed the deal with the jenner during a circle brawl with him, and after I died to a marauder someone else finished off the shadowcat for me that I started shooting after the jenner died. .

Edited by Dee Eight, 11 October 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[El Bandito]

On the other hand, I had a guy on my team who went alone towards the enemy in Frozen City, promptly died, and then had the gall to type "Seems I am the only guy with a ****". Yeah, he had a **** alright--in place of his brain!

Blind courage is not bravery, it is idiocy.

[TLBFestus]

Had a match the other night after my buddies logged out. We were on Grim and everyone had moved forward and the peekaboo contest was in full swing.

To our left flank, downhill a bit, there were only 2-3 mechs on red, exchanging shots with at least 6 of us. One of our team spoke up, pointed out this weak side, and suggested we push as we had the numbers and the tonnage to succeed. I agreed, so did a few others and we moved out coming under enemy fire as we moved in on them.

Everything worked great until 2 pilots bailed almost immediately when they saw the enemy shooting back. We still had the numbers and i was committed as I was in a slow *** assault and there was no turning back. I soaked up damage for my team, torso-twisting and moving slowly closer.

Naturally, seeing another mech taking damage (GASP!), convincing two more blue pilots to tuck tail and run away. In the end, I marched out and died, and the only thing that did was give the spineless guys extra time to waffle and run away.

We had 6 against 2, which whittled down to 4-2, which then became 3-1 (in favor of red) and I died. It's not like I ran ahead, I was too slow and my teammates should have sped forward while I was being focus fired, but they didn't.

Too many players think that taking 10, 20, or 30% damage is the end of the game for them and don't want to get hit at all. Old story, same results.

[mogs01gt]

Appogee, on 11 October 2016 - 03:51 AM, said:

Heads up that this is a classic 'something happened* to me while I was playing today and I want to vent in the forums in the mistaken belief that it might cause the MWO playerbase to play better' thread
I have lost so many matches this week due to large proportions of teams hiding behind rocks and not engaging during the main battle. I and fellow experienced fighters regularly got our team a 3 kill advantage... only to have the team lose the match due to several hundred tons of team mates standing 800m away from the battle, hiding behind rocks, taking very occasional pot shots into the melee.
Dear hiders:
All you are doing is let the enemy fight two consecutive 12v6 skirmishes. It's a guaranteed losing strategy. The first half of us actually engaging - intelligently, using cover, flanking and not yoloing - will inevitably be overwhelmed by the 12 enemy fighting us. Then we have to watch helplessly as you, in your undamaged heavy Mechs, waaaaay waaaaay back from the battle, manage a couple of futile final shots before also getting focused down by the enemy 12v6.
You have tons of armor. You can accord to take a few hits while you are shooting. Move with the group, use cover ... but also keep pressure on the enemy by shooting them! If we ALL take a few hits, while firing back together, we can win.
Russ gave you armor and weapons. But only you can bring the balls necessary to use these gifts.
* This isn't just some 'last game' phenomenon. It's been happening for the past few days. I can't see why the current event would be causing people to play this way. These people are less likely to get a KMD at the last minute, facing overwhelming enemies, than if they'd just moved up and fought with the rest of us.

These matches happen far to often any more. Every time I see a trend in the players piloting like this, I shut the game down for a week or two. Not worth my time.

[Splatshot]

The problem may be there is no other game were taking damage is expected when one competes.

Everyone wants the flawless victory.

[mogs01gt]

Splatshot, on 11 October 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

The problem may be there is no other game were taking damage is expected when one competes.
Everyone wants the flawless victory.

ITs because they are out for cbills rather than winning

[Roughneck45]

I think that is the biggest learning curve in this game.

You have to be the focus target and provide your armor for the team when necessary.

Much easier to do with a team than a pug, but nothing is more annoying than an assault "sniping" at the back with fresh armor half way through the match.

[Hans Brackhaus]

I've seen the same situations the OP describes quite often, and pretty much every time there was no communication from the team. So I have to ask: was anybody talking? Anybody sharing the plan?

I do my best to stay with the team, even if I don't like what they're doing or the position is bad. This has led to a good few games that turned into hiding and sniping matches. Not really fun but what am I supposed to do? I think a lot of players may be in the same boat as me, willing to follow a plan but not really comfortable calling for or leading a push. So in the absence of communication, everybody's just kind of taking what shots they can and trying not to die.

Is that similar to what others are seeing?

[Big Tin Man]

I bring my liquid courage to every battle.

Edited by Big Tin Man, 11 October 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[Scyther]

The problem is obviously Appogee's for failing to adapt to a fluid combat situation.

When you see this situation develop, take your front-running 6 mechs, waddle back, stand *behind* the guys that are hiding behind rocks.

Now, they can't retreat further, and you have a firing line! Also, enemy pilots will be all hot and sweaty from running towards you and searching behind rocks. It's a sure-fire win!

[Hunka Junk]

Honestly, advice is often at odds with itself.

On one hand, everybody should push,

On the other, wherever LRMs enter the discussion, they are the weakest weapon because there's always a rock to hide behind.

Everyone should stick together, but then people complain about dying while others are hiding.

People laying back complain about others ramboing.

I think Hans has is right; follow what your team does.

That's more difficult with rambos, but if people wanna hide, then draw the firing line at their positions.

The worst map for this is the revised frozen city, which too often turns into people tickling each other for .13% with er-lasers. There is cover in the valley, but does it matter if most of your team is gonna sit 1500m out?