63 replies to this topic

[Corrado]

well worst match in a KDK3 post nerf? running 2xUAC10 2xUAC5... is really hard to do less than 500 damage. even in a tomato team.

[MrMadguy]

Hmmm... Why not 4xUAC10+4xMDL? It's instant 80dmg, if you're lucky. I would run this one. All I would need - is balance engine vs ammo.

[El Bandito]

MrMadguy, on 22 October 2016 - 01:54 AM, said:

Hmmm... Why not 4xUAC10+4xMDL? It's instant 80dmg, if you're lucky. I would run this one. All I would need - is balance engine vs ammo.

Heat will be too much to sustain fire afterwards. Assuming your mechs hasn't overheated by then. There was a time when quad CUAC10s were fine to alpha, but that has been fixed, since. Best you can do is to chain-fire them 2x2.

[qeurul]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2016 - 01:58 AM, said:

Heat will be too much to sustain fire afterwards. Assuming your mechs hasn't overheated by then. There was a time when quad CUAC10s were fine to alpha, but that has been fixed, since. Best you can do is to chain-fire them 2x2.

I switched to 2x UAC5/10 combo because of this: it gives you the best possible "instant" 60dmg that is also sustainable afterwards. Also you don't have to worry ghost heat, so you can fire all you've got without worry of tomorrow.

[Zergling]

Snowbluff, on 21 October 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Actually, isn't this mostly based on damage done?

Too wit: Dakkabears combined with the popularity of KDK3 for being a "metamech" would inflate the score. Combined with the larger sample size of "flavor of the month," and the fact that only the best games were kept (only best 10, right?), the data moot.

1) Dakka Bears are damage/kill inefficient, inflating the score with impressive but meaningless damage.
2) Pokebears are piloted by good mech pilots, who inflate the scores via skill.

I would like real data for the KDK3 specifically, if available. I think Kodiak shouldn't have quirks on principal, but I don't think it'll need nerfing beyond that and Power Draw.

Take a look at the personal stats posted by players like El Bandito and McGral18; the KDK-3 scores more kills, wins more battles and still does more damage than other assaults.

Random Carnage, on 21 October 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

/sigh

During the KDK leader-board events you had a lot of slow moving barn door targets being piloted by potatoes that could be farmed for scores not realistic once the events were over and normality resumed. That the difference is only 10% in light of this is remarkable.

I note that you don't compare tonnage averaged results to look at the locust and cheeto in comparison which are ranked 2 and 3 respectively tonne for tonne, and they achieved this most likely during events that were saturated with tiny very fast moving targets with little capacity for farming damage.

Apples and oranges.

The exact same circumstances you described apply to all other assaults in those leaderboards; there were lots of other slow moving barn door targets being piloted by potatoes that could be farmed for scores not realistic once the events were over and normality resumed.

Further, the Locust and Cheetah are only OP compared to the average for mechs of their tonnage.
Heavier mechs are not supposed to be more powerful than lighter mechs; those two lights only appear to be OP compared to other lights, due to most lights sucking and PGI failing to sufficiently balance tonnage.
On a 1 for 1 mech basis, those lights are not OP.

Edited by Zergling, 22 October 2016 - 11:12 AM.

[L3mming2]

Mcgral18, on 21 October 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

They all take the same mechbay

yes but still there score is normalised for tonage?! puting the LCT as the second best after the KDK3 is IMO a indication that the comparison needs a sanity chek..

(i do agrea the KDK 3 is to strong, it should lose all it quirks, it will probably still be the best mech then but atleast the gap will be smaller.. it realy douse not need quirks..)

[0bsidion]

It's crazy what a difference high mounted quad over-under barrels combined with lots of pod space apparently makes. On paper the KDK-3 didn't look wildly better than anything we already had.

But if anyone can do terribad in a mech like this, it's probably me. I don't own one, but if I did I can see myself totally rocking 90 dmg games before getting face planted, because I'm smooth like that.

After all, I owned the ACH back when it was considered a broken practically cheating metamech and it was by far my worst matches in a light mech ever.

[Aiden Skye]

El Bandito, on 21 October 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

EASILY DONE.



Solo-q only. KDK-3 is bloody OP. All matches played after KDK-3 was nerfed.


Now compare that to my most tryhard IS assaults in the Solo-Q. Not even a contest.

To play devils advocate -The problem with pulling stats, I only play solo Q.


30 matches in the KDK-3, and I suck in it. Same can be said for all of my assaults. Just not my thing. Now is it the mech or the pilot or the combination of both? Crap pilot in a good mech does not a good combination make. I freely admit I am a terrible assault pilot.

That said twist rate / twist angles on all the KDK's is nuts compared to the Direwolf which has inferior hardpoint placement and abysmal maneuverability. I think if the KDK it's going to have the speed of a heavy, the direwolf should have the better twist capabilities at the very least. The 3 especially could have it twist hammered down as it has the capability use massive shield arms without getting stripped of a significant amount of weaponry, and has perfect hard-point placement for devastating firepower.

[El Bandito]

W A R K H A N, on 22 October 2016 - 03:31 PM, said:

To play devils advocate -The problem with pulling stats, I only play solo Q.


30 matches in the KDK-3, and I suck in it. Same can be said for all of my assaults. Just not my thing. Now is it the mech or the pilot or the combination of both? Crap pilot in a good mech does not a good combination make. I freely admit I am a terrible assault pilot.

That said twist rate / twist angles on all the KDK's is nuts compared to the Direwolf which has inferior hardpoint placement and abysmal maneuverability. I think if the KDK it's going to have the speed of a heavy, the direwolf should have the better twist capabilities at the very least. The 3 especially could have it twist hammered down as it has the capability use massive shield arms without getting stripped of a significant amount of weaponry, and has perfect hard-point placement for devastating firepower.

First of all, awesome Shadowcat-B score, especially if those are done in the solo-q. Mad respect. You gotta tell me the build, cause I am thinking of buying that mech.



Secondly, there are a lot of people who have no idea how to play Assaults, yet drive the KDK-3. Those are the people who dies in their KDK-3 with less than 300 damage in a match. Those are the people who let others think KDK-3 is not OP. In a hands of Assault players who knows how to roll, the true OP nature of the beast can be seen. KDK-3 is very fast and agile for a 100 tonner, without sacrificing any firepower or durability. The dakka build is so simple yet effective, I feel like the mech is practically driving itself! Yet that build is not the most devastating one. The dual Gauss + dual CERPPC build is just WTFBBQ in the hands of someone who is experienced with those weapon systems. Luckily, those players are few and far between, in the solo-q.

[Vellron2005]

I really don't get it why you people say the KDK-3 is OP..

I run one.. I've tried a myriad of builds, from full dakka to dakka and laser mix.. settled on 4 x CERMLAS + 2 x CLBX20.

Sure, it can shred mechs, even big ones, in 3-4 alphas, but that doesn't do you much good agains a LRM boat 900 meters away you can't even see.

I've been rained upon with LRM's too many times to not feel completely outmatched on saaaay, Polar Highlands.

One time, I even managed to do exactly ZERO damage with it. (I ashamed :-( ).

So don't tell me its OP.

It's only OP if it can get into a brawl. Otherwise, a LRM100 Warhawk or Stalker is king.

[Mcgral18]

Vellron2005, on 24 October 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

It's only OP if it can get into a brawl. Otherwise, a LRM100 Warhawk or Stalker is king.

Please tell me this is satire

[meteorol]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

Secondly, there are a lot of people who have no idea how to play Assaults, yet drive the KDK-3. Those are the people who dies in their KDK-3 with less than 300 damage in a match.

i scored less than 300 damage with the KDK-3 yesterday and now i feel bad

[El Bandito]

meteorol, on 24 October 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

i scored less than 300 damage with the KDK-3 yesterday and now i feel bad

Once in a while it happens, either due to bad luck or bad positioning. I had a sub 300 damage game once. Once out of 50 total matches with the KDK-3.

Vellron2005, on 24 October 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

I really don't get it why you people say the KDK-3 is OP..

I run one.. I've tried a myriad of builds, from full dakka to dakka and laser mix.. settled on 4 x CERMLAS + 2 x CLBX20.

Sure, it can shred mechs, even big ones, in 3-4 alphas, but that doesn't do you much good agains a LRM boat 900 meters away you can't even see.

I've been rained upon with LRM's too many times to not feel completely outmatched on saaaay, Polar Highlands.

One time, I even managed to do exactly ZERO damage with it. (I ashamed :-( ).

So don't tell me its OP.

It's only OP if it can get into a brawl. Otherwise, a LRM100 Warhawk or Stalker is king.

You settled on dual CLB20X KDK-3 as your best build, then wonder why your KDK-3 is not OP? That's laughable!

Then again, your potatoness should've been obvious when you stated that LRM boat 900 meters away, of all things, gives you trouble.

See, it is players like this guy that makes KDK-3 appear not as OP as it really is. The mech is OP, but it requires pilots who know a bit on how to drive the thing in the first place.

Vellron, you can do whatever build you want on your KDK-3, but my advice is to ditch the dual CLB20Xs and learn to use either the 2xCUAX5+2xCUAC10, or 2xCERPPC+2xGauss build. Then perhaps your WLR will actually reach 1:1 next season.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 October 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[KodiakGW]

This subject will be a moot point once ED gets rammed down our throats. Four UACs (any flavor or mix) double tapped will mean insta-shutdown or death. That is why they are not bothering.

In the meantime, let me have my "CARRY HARDER guaranteed 80 match score no matter how pathetic the solo PUG team is" mech for the grab bag event. Sick of seeing 4-10 sub 150 match NASCAR wannabe, or suicide rusher, or "hide-and-seek" players on my team 90% of the time. Just want my Zombie mech cockpit item.

[Mech Croissant]

My worst game in a Kodiak 3 was 47 dmg done, but that was entirely ny fault......always go with your Team even when you know they do the worst move in order to have an entire two lances in their back.

The other thing with the Kodiak 3 is, that, due to all the talk of it being OP, one can get into the feeling to be invincible and thus making stupid moves.

I, for one, am not a good Assault pilot.....not until I got my Executioners. This mech I really love and in terms of agility and torso twist, the Kodiak is slow and unhandy as ****!

Yes, the Kodiak 3 is good, but my best games I had in my Executioners and the Spirit Bear!

[meteorol]

KodiakGW, on 24 October 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

In the meantime, let me have my "CARRY HARDER guaranteed 80 match score no matter how pathetic the solo PUG team is" mech for the grab bag event.

A guaranteed 80 match score mech... would probably be anything heavier than a light. 80 matchscore is 160 damage. That should absolutely be possible with almost any mech, no matter how hard one gets curbstomped.

[KodiakGW]

meteorol, on 24 October 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

A guaranteed 80 match score mech... would probably be anything heavier than a light. 80 matchscore is 160 damage. That should absolutely be possible with almost any mech, no matter how hard one gets curbstomped.

160 damage, if one of the mechs die, guarantees 80 match. I've been on 1-12 losses and had to back off killing mechs after coring them, only to see that they didn't die.

250 damage, no matter what the outcome, guarantees 100 match score. Easy for any KDK. I'd rather hedge my bets, thank you.

[El Bandito]

KodiakGW, on 24 October 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

160 damage, if one of the mechs die, guarantees 80 match. I've been on 1-12 losses and had to back off killing mechs after coring them, only to see that they didn't die.

250 damage, no matter what the outcome, guarantees 100 match score. Easy for any KDK. I'd rather hedge my bets, thank you.

Every 2 damage counts as 1 score, doesn't matter if you killed a mech or not.

With the KDK-3, 500 match score requirement can be done in one game, most of the time. It's ridiculous.



And some people still don't think KDK-3 is OP.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 October 2016 - 06:27 PM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

El Bandito, on 24 October 2016 - 05:27 PM, said:

Every 2 damage counts as 1 score, doesn't matter if you killed a mech or not.

With the KDK-3, 500 match score requirement can be done in one game, most of the time. It's ridiculous.



And some people still don't think KDK-3 is OP.

I had just hopped out of my KDK-3 and I got into this round with you. Way to make a pilot feel inadequate for what I did in my Black Widow in that round! I was doing my thing and then suddenly the enemy was just all dead. Well done, one of the bigger KDK-3 rounds I have seen in QP. It's not these huge scores that show the power of the KDK-3 though, it's the volumes of 700-900 damage rounds that are too numberous to count. Really...Anyone, who doesn't see the KDK-3 for the outlier it is either doesn't know how to play that mech to its potential or just doesn't want to see the truth for whatever reason. Hard to fathom this is still an argument. A better discussion is not "if" to adjust the KDK-3.... but by how to adjust (nerf) it.

Until then I will live large in my KDK-3 and make no apologies for it's brokeness. It has made this weeks challenges much easier to get done faster.

[qeurul]

El Bandito, on 22 October 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

The dakka build is so simple yet effective, I feel like the mech is practically driving itself! Yet that build is not the most devastating one. The dual Gauss + dual CERPPC build is just WTFBBQ in the hands of someone who is experienced with those weapon systems. Luckily, those players are few and far between, in the solo-q.

I tried the gauss erppc build on KDK-3 first time after reading this post, and have been experimenting with it for a few days. The gauss and erppc are in good use on my other main builds, so only new thing here was the chassis. The goal was to try to dig into the alleged overpowerness of the dakka builds, by getting some hands-on-experience. The lab environment was easy to set, since especially now with current challenge you get one to four KDK-3's against you in every single round

First, as Bandito mentioned, the skill requirement goes through the roof with gauss erppc build, one small mistake and your toast. So what gives you the feeling then, that the dakka build "practically drives itself", as Bandito put it?


Test scenario:
On Tourmaline Desert (skirmish) I wen't to bird's nest on C5 to snipe on 600m range below. There was dakka KDK-3 on D5, so we got on perfect one-on-one poking match. To recollect, we had two identical KDK-3's with identical hardpoints, only with different loadouts.

So, I preloaded gausses and peeked and shot: bam 30 points of dmg. While still I was in sideway movement trying to get my hand-located erppc's to bear, the first volley of enemy dakka hit me and second was on its way.

Movement done and erppc's with clear line of sight, my vision was already obstructed by smoke and screen shake, but I did manage to connect with the erppc's and complete the 60 dmg alpha. Just for the sake of this experiment, I did this unfavorable poke cycle two times and as a result I lost with 2:1 damage ratio.


Analyzing scenario:
As far as I can see, there are three main contributing factors to the 'magic' of KDK-3 dakka build.

HARDPOINTS
Thanks to tight grouping of four AC hardpoints, that mitigate the need for sideways movement, the full blast was coming my way while I was still in movement to position.

SCREEN SHAKE & SMOKE
While I hit first with dual gauss, it had none-what-so-ever obstructing effect on enemy Kodiak's vision, enabling him to answer with unimpeded precision. On the other hand, UAC 5/10 fire inflict both screen shake and smoke, so my visibility on enemy was efficiently obstructed even before I got my erppc's to bear. In this situation, I needed tremendous skill to hit with erppc's, but the dakka with clear vision could just continue to press button and be done with it. This second factor is closely attached to third one:

RATE OF FIRE:
What you get when you combine screen shake and smoke inducing weapons with high rate of fire? Some might call it highly efficient suppression, at least I do. In the above scenario, I found it incredibly hard to complete my alpha, because of constant, impaired, vision.


Conclusion:
When you combine the three factors above, you get the easy to drive, easy to position suppression machine, that just shoves everything off from its sight, essentially giving you the "driving by itself" feeling. Now if you take even one out, the 'magic' evaporates like smoke in the air. As it is said many times before, there isn't anything that special to Kodiak, and even the KDK-3 chassis itself.



How does all of the above add up with you? If we wanted to do something about it, I myself think it like this: when the 'magic' is only in the KDK-3 dakka build, lets alter only the behaviour of that combo. Maybe just adding UAC 5/10 jamming percentage on KDK-3 would make it stand out less?

Edited by qeurul, 25 October 2016 - 05:16 AM.