84 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

This is not a discussion surrounding how badly PGI has performed to date. It's irrefutable that they have offered up several stillborn ideas and have failed on many fronts. No, this is a discussion about establishing expectations moving forward and how we, particular veterans, need to reestablish our baseline and adjust our expectations.

To be clear... I'm not inferring we need to forget the past lest we risk repeating it. I'm offering the reality that clinging to past transgressions is unhealthy in any relationship.

One: Let's establish the harsh reality that the four pillars we were sold way back in the beginning are now irrelevant. That boat sailed long ago with the veer to esport'esk endeavors. Pining over what could have been, is an exercise in frustration. With the present development team and the framework already essentially laid, returning to those pillars is functionally unrealistic.

Two: In any live production environment, the project can and will morph into various shades of the original design concept. To include omission of previously discussed features, modification of existing features and concessions beyond previously discussed changes. Let's drop the pseudo-adolescent inference that everything discussed is a promise that cannot be broken or amended... This is not how real world works and most definitely is not the world of software development.

Three - Being practical / realistic: Let's be honest... We all would not be here if there was not something about MWO, regardless of how small and pedantic it may be that we enjoy about MWO. With that reality, let's dispense with pie-in-the-sky expectations (For the immediate future) and establish real, attainable goals for MWO, this community and this developer. Ya can't get from point A to point B without first taking a step...

Lastly, bearing into consideration the above three baselines, how can we dispense with all the snark, derision, and vitriol and create an environment that might be conducive to re-establishing a non-combative relationship with PGI with an end-goal of having frank and honest discussion about the direction of MWO. Yes, I understand this requires PGI coming to the table and behaving like adults. Conversely, this goes for us as well. Like my mother loved to share with me and my siblings... It takes two to fight.

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

Thoughts?

Edited by DaZur, 04 November 2016 - 01:51 PM.

[GotShotALot]

Pretty much exactly what MWO needs to move ahead... stop clinging to past hurts and decide what can be done with the game today, with existing assets, that will make the game more attractive and retentive to players.

Over the past few months I have seen a number of reasonable, achievable suggestions put forward that I think would enhance MWO game play. I've also seen 2-3 times that many suggestions put forward that I will class as 'neither possible nor likely despite their merits (or lack thereof)'.

So the question is, how do you want to go about separating the wheat from the chaff?

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

I have 4 new pillars that they can introduce to replace the old ones:

1) Thou shall not nerf PPC or Gauss Rifles!

2) Thou shall not introduce Energy Draw into the live servers!

3) Thou shall introduce PVE

4) Thou shall bringith back 8 vs 8!

[DaZur]

Mycrus, on 04 November 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Its too late.

Dispensing with the bitterness... That is not true otherwise you would not be here.

[Alistair Winter]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

To be clear... I'm not inferring we need to forget the past lest we risk repeating it. I'm offering the reality that clinging to past transgressions is unhealthy in any relationship.

I disagree. Not every relationship is going to fulfill the desires of everyone involved. Most people have friends or relatives that have let them down in the past. Or even business associates. It's not a choice between either letting go or ending the relationship. Sometimes you maintain a relationship with someone even though you know from past experience that it's best not to get your hopes up. Whether it's a friend who always backs out of plans, a brother who is going to fight you over the inheritance from your parents or a customer who has a tendency to cancel their orders or haggle over the price.

It's not always about forgetting the past and moving on, sometimes you just maintain relationships with people and try to adjust your expectations based on previous experiences. Maybe you maintain a relationship with your mother-in-law, even though she's a b*tch, for example. If she's been a b*tch for 10 years, you don't try to forget the past every time you see her. You manage your expectations and see if you can get through holidays without the old hag ruining christmas for everyone.

TL;DR -

[RestosIII]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

So you're saying we should forget everything PGI promised, and everything the founders gave money for just because "Eh, they gave up on doing it. We should be happy with their failure." Okay then.

Edited by RestosIII, 04 November 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Mycrus]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Dispensing with the bitterness... That is not true otherwise you would not be here.

I play (2-3 drops a week) because i like to gank noobs and troll on the forumz...

I gave pgi the benefit of the doubt when igp was thrown under the bus... you see them acting like igp..
So maybe it wasnt igp afterall...

Mwoah is in maintenance mode and it wont surprise me if they have divertes resources to secretly work on transfail.

[Karl Streiger]

Move forward?
Well introduce a tonnage based balance system and drop rock, paper and nerfgun

This would need a different kind of mm including different max tonnage settings the advantage that any new mech could be balanced on its tonnage no Quirks or hp inflation necessary

[Hunka Junk]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

This is not a discussion surrounding how badly PGI has performed to date. It's irrefutable that they have offered up several stillborn ideas and have failed on many fronts. No, this is a discussion about establishing expectations moving forward and how we, particular veterans, need to reestablish our baseline and adjust our expectations.

To be clear... I'm not inferring we need to forget the past lest we risk repeating it. I'm offering the reality that clinging to past transgressions is unhealthy in any relationship.

One: Let's establish the harsh reality that the four pillars we were sold way back in the beginning are now irrelevant. That boat sailed long ago with the veer to esport'esk endeavors. Pining over what could have been, is an exercise in frustration. With the present development team and the framework already essentially laid, returning to those pillars is functionally unrealistic.

Two: In any live production environment, the project can and will morph into various shades of the original design concept. To include omission of previously discussed features, modification of existing features and concessions beyond previously discussed changes. Let's drop the pseudo-adolescent inference that everything discussed is a promise that cannot be broken or amended... This is not how real world works and most definitely is not the world of software development.

Three - Being practical / realistic: Let's be honest... We all would not be here if there was not something about MWO, regardless of how small and pedantic it may be that we enjoy about MWO. With that reality, let's dispense with pie-in-the-sky expectations (For the immediate future) and establish real, attainable goals for MWO, this community and this developer. Ya can't get from point A to point B without first taking a step...

Lastly, bearing into consideration the above three baselines, how can we dispense with all the snark, derision, and vitriol and create an environment that might be conducive to re-establishing a non-combative relationship with PGI with an end-goal of having frank and honest discussion about the direction of MWO. Yes, I understand this requires PGI coming to the table and behaving like adults. Conversely, this goes for us as well. Like my mother loved to share with me and my siblings... It takes two to fight.

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

Thoughts?

My thought is this:

If you'd rather support PGI in the face of community opposition, that's fine.

If you think you are somehow better than those who criticize PGI or are arguing from some more objective position, you're not.

Your salt about the community is still salt. It isn't sugar because you're shoveling the salt in a different direction.

[Rebas Kradd]

If the four pillars are dead and hopeless, then I and a number of veteran players are probably finished with the game. I'm still here largely because I believe they can still be built upon the existing foundation, just not in Quick Play.

You can call that an exercise in futility if you want, but I'm not interested in MechWarrior Online if its only future is more eSports.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 04 November 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Added this because sometimes these forums just need a chill pill.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 November 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Mycrus, on 04 November 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Its too late.

This is how it is for me to. I don't really care where it goes. I have all the mechs I need, Even though I haven't played in a long time enough CB to buy the power crept mechs should I need them if I play again.

The direction is clear and it won't change. I don't even consider that a risk to say.

[Belacose]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

stillborn ideas

Have never heard that term used as an analogy before. Not sure whether or not I should find it disturbing?

[Bud Crue]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

Thoughts?

I think asking about our "preexisting bias" is not the right approach. The majority of your post essentially lays out why we folks who are angry or disappointed are not biased but actually justified. But in the spirit of your conclusary question, essentially: 'can we move on productively'. That seems to me to be entirely up to PGI rather than its customers.

I mean if they keep up with this BS that all changes to the game are top secret for months on end and we will only tease you about them and build them up, only to crush your expectations with the reality of the timid change we are actually making. Then no. I don't think we can move forward productively.

If on the other hand, PGI levels with us, tells us their plan/intentions/(heaven forbid: "vision") for the game and QUICKLY follows up with actual content/changes, then yes, at least a portion of the community can "move on". I expect that no matter what they do, some will be disappointed and "moving on" will be literally that: moving on from this game. But they still need to have the balls to pick a direction and go with it.

To my way of thinking I am in the midst of the so-called "five stages of grief". I'm pretty sure that the future of the game (admittedly only suggested and hinted at by Russ) is e-sports and not the immersive community warfare experience that was advertised as the end game content. As such, I expect I will not...at least in the long term...be moving on productively with this game but eventually leaving it. So be it. Hopefully that e-sports future is everything the majority of players wants. But for me, I am past "anger" and "bargaining" (I've made numerous public offers to throw money at this game, as I used to, if CW was anything but the crap state that it is) and I am mired now in "depression". If I get to "acceptance," that likely means I have given up hope that they will make the game I want (and that they once advertised), and in which case PGI will be rid of me and my cash, and HBS will gain it; at least until something else comes along that does a better job of pretending to be a Mechwarrior game.

[LordNothing]

when pgi was doing founders i was still enjoying living legends. so i am totally unaware of any "promises" they may have issued early in development. i came in to try it out played a few games and went back to living legends whenever there were players. this was before the clan invasion. eventually mwll fizzled out and mwo became a full time thing. so i have no problems with the original plans being abandoned so long as pgi is clear about the direction its going.

i was also totally on the fence about this new fangled free to play model. now i am firmly against it. its as broke as the aaa model. part of the deal is we pay more, and the game stays in development. mechpacks is not development, its modding. developments are too slow, ive tagged along with indie games, mods, and open source projects, and they all had a much better rate of progress than this. pgi aren't even keeping up the illusion anymore.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 November 2016 - 05:51 PM.

[Novakaine]

Aerotech is coming...........

[DaZur]

For clarity, I'm not inferring anyone should forget the past. Apparently, despite trying to make that clear in my opening preface it was not made clear enough... What I'm saying is at some point we need to accept reality and address the here and now.

Yes, for all intent and purpose the four pillars are dead (for the moment). Expectation of these pillars to suddenly re-materialize and be embedded in the existing framework is irrational and illogical. It's not part of the present patterned design philosophy.

That said... I'm not saying the pillars cannot or will not be implemented at some later juncture. I'm saying, that bearing into consideration the existing infrastructure and the direction present proposed development outlines, Pillars are not in the cards "right now". No, I'm not saying "forget about the pillars"... I'm saying "forget about the pillars right now".

I'm as frustrated with this being the sad reality as much as anyone... I wanted the space opera / battlemach sim proposed. That said, I'm practical enough to resign that for the moment it's not part of the discussion regarding the immediate future. I have not written it off... But I'm also not hanging all present and future decisions on it being resurrected.

I'm not saying let go of your dreams... I'm saying, keeps your dreams but don't let the fact they have not manifested to interfere with your ability to enjoy life and function in the here and now.

Absolutely... PGI had the largest part in terms of effecting change and fostering a real and functional dev / customer environment. That said, we have to acknowledge we play a role nurturing that environment. We do that by re-assessing our expectations based on the "here and now" and mitigate the hostilities.

[GRiPSViGiL]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

For clarity, I'm not inferring anyone should forget the past. Apparently, despite trying to make that clear in my opening preface it was not made clear enough... What I'm saying is at some point we need to accept reality and address the here and now.

Yes, for all intent and purpose the four pillars are dead (for the moment). Expectation of these pillars to suddenly re-materialize and be embedded in the existing framework is irrational and illogical. It's not part of the present patterned design philosophy.

That said... I'm not saying the pillars cannot or will not be implemented at some later juncture. I'm saying, that bearing into consideration the existing infrastructure and the direction present proposed development outlines, Pillars are not in the cards "right now". No, I'm not saying "forget about the pillars"... I'm saying "forget about the pillars right now".

I'm as frustrated with this being the sad reality as much as anyone... I wanted the space opera / battlemach sim proposed. That said, I'm practical enough to resign that for the moment it's not part of the discussion regarding the immediate future. I have not written it off... But I'm also not hanging all present and future decisions on it being resurrected.

I'm not saying let go of your dreams... I'm saying, keeps your dreams but don't let the fact they have not manifested to interfere with your ability to enjoy life and function in the here and now.

Absolutely... PGI had the largest part in terms of effecting change and fostering a real and functional dev / customer environment. That said, we have to acknowledge we play a role nurturing that environment. We do that by re-assessing our expectations based on the "here and now" and mitigate the hostilities.

Let me know when PGI acknowledges their failures and admits they can't provide what was originally promise concerning MWO with a a sliver of remorse and I might think about mitigating my hostility.

[BLOOD WOLF]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 November 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Let me know when PGI acknowledges their failures and admits they can't provide what was originally promise concerning MWO with a a sliver of remorse and I might think about mitigating my hostility.

good luck with that. Even if they did you would still post the same thing, because they actually did, yet you still made this post. When I say "they" i mean russ did. You just missed it.

I would point you to the townhall but I already did that for imperious, I am not going to go out of my way for everyone making this claim.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 November 2016 - 07:52 PM.

[TLBFestus]

First and foremost, for anything in this thread to be relevant, Russ Bullock needs to have a change of heart with regard to listening to community opinions and suggestions. That doesn't mean he/PGI has to do anything, or agree every time, but they have to LISTEN. If they listen, most of us would have no problem being told "No, not going to happen because X".

Unless that happens, the rest of this thread is just more urinating into the wind as usual.