261 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Bradigus, on 31 October 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

Honestly it'd be the Vanquisher.

This is admittedly the one sexy thing I could agree to seeing come into MWO.

[TheArisen]

Bradigus, on 31 October 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

Honestly it'd be the Vanquisher.



Sure, you'd need to replace the Light gauss rifles and the ER medium lasers with regular ones for MWO, but it'd be able to compete with the Kodiak for top meta capability. Like a 100-ton Catapult K2.

Especially since it's 2nd variant, the VQR-2B, carries 4x Ultra Autocannon 5/s.

The main issue here is it'd be somewhat slower than the KDK. The Pillager & Thunder Hawk have the same issue. I might sound like a broken record but IMO the Nightstar has a lot going for it including a variant capable of taking a 400 (or less obviously) engine, it comes with a 375xl.

Yeah it may have some convergence issues but it's just a matter of choosing which weakness to have. The convergence issue may not even be that big but a smallish engine will always be a smallish engine.

[FLG 01]

TheArisen, on 31 October 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

Here's a question, if you had to pick an Inner Sphere mech to compete with the Kodiak, what would it be?

Without the LFE (and/or other new tech like heavy gauss) no IS assault will be capable of truly competing with the Kodiak. There are, however, a few which could outperform the Kodiak in certain aspects or niches:

• The Nightstar with its torso shape and hardpoint distribution could challenge the Kodiak in long range combat
  
• The Cerberus could mount an impressive array of ballistics, including 4x AC/10 thanks to the MWO mechlab, and it has a high engine cap
  
• The Gunslinger has an excellent choice of hardpoints and comes with ECM
  
• There are better missile boats (Longbow, Viking)
  
• There are better cavalry Mechs (Spartan, Charger)
  
• There are even smaller niches...

... but overall no IS assault can hope to match the Kodiak's combination of speed, endurance and firepower if limited to STD and (IS) XL engines.
If I had to, I'd either try with the Nightstar and keep my distance, or with the Spartan and maneuver into favourable situations (and avoid unfavourable situations).

And if new tech is on the table: Fafnir.

Edited by FLG 01, 31 October 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Chados]

You know, with twin ER PPCs, two ASRM6, and enough heat sinks and motor...the Thug might just be the right anti-Bear device.

[Y E O N N E]

Chados, on 31 October 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

You know, with twin ER PPCs, two ASRM6, and enough heat sinks and motor...the Thug might just be the right anti-Bear device.

Nope. Already did it on my Marauders. Still too hot even with 18 DHS. Better off mixing MedPulse and SRMs.

[Chados]

Yeah, but the Thug is heavier. Maybe it can take more heat sinks? A MAD3R is almost heat neutral with 2xPPC and a uAC5, with 2xML equipped, running a STD280 and as many DHS as it can carry...if you don't shoot the lasers at all. Once you start shooting the lasers you get hot fast. I save them to gang with the uAC for people who facehug me inside 90 meters. Works great til the uAC jams.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Nope. Already did it on my Marauders. Still too hot even with 18 DHS. Better off mixing MedPulse and SRMs.

Well... the question is, would the Thug be XL friendly? Carrying a XL375 opens up a lot of internal space (5 engine DHS). Using a Zeus in the Mechlab...

Damn. Two crits short of being able to use 20 DHS and still fitting Dual ER PPCs and an SRM12A. Stupid Inner Sphere Endo-Steel... maybe with the right quirks?

EDIT: Nope, it works!

ER PPC x2
SRM6A x2
SRM6A Ammo x2
DHS x20
XL 375

EDIT EDIT: ******* hand actuators. Nevermind.

Edited by Bombast, 31 October 2016 - 02:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 31 October 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

Well... the question is, would the Thug be XL friendly? Carrying a XL375 opens up a lot of internal space (5 engine DHS). Using a Zeus in the Mechlab...

Damn. Two crits short of being able to use 20 DHS and still fitting Dual ER PPCs and an SRM12A. Stupid Inner Sphere Endo-Steel... maybe with the right quirks?

Marauders are about as XL friendly as any other IS 'Mech, actually, so that wasn't the main weakness. Rather, it's the fact that it is still technically a brawl-range build and, as such, dependent on the team engaging together with some ability. It is actually quite effective as a jump-tart missile slinger, but the damage is inferior to Pulse builds while being hotter and with only the slimmest returns for being truly front-loaded. Maybe if they cut the ER PPC heat down (and honestly, they should since it is a stock ER PPC 'Mech) and gave it back it's missile velocity and agility...

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

Marauders are about as XL friendly as any other IS 'Mech, actually, so that wasn't the main weakness. Rather, it's the fact that it is still technically a brawl-range build and, as such, dependent on the team engaging together with some ability. It is actually quite effective as a jump-tart missile slinger, but the damage is inferior to Pulse builds while being hotter and with only the slimmest returns for being truly front-loaded. Maybe if they cut the ER PPC heat down (and honestly, they should since it is a stock ER PPC 'Mech) and gave it back it's missile velocity and agility...

Well, I was trying to make an 80 ton mech (Thug) that could pull the build off where the Marauder couldn't. Unfortunately, the Thug doesn't have the internal space to pull it off.

Then again, the Zeus can pull it off (Crit and Tonnage wise), and I rarely see those things running around murdering Kodiaks (Or anyone else), so I guess it's just flawed and 20 DHS isn't enough either.

Edited by Bombast, 31 October 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 31 October 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

Well, I was trying to make an 80 ton mech (Thug) that could pull the build off where the Marauder couldn't. Unfortunately, the Thug doesn't have the internal space to pull it off.

Then again, the Zeus can pull it off (Crit and Tonnage wise), and I rarely see those things running around murdering Kodiaks (Or anyone else), so I guess it's just flawed and 20 DHS isn't enough either.

5 tons is near enough as makes no difference, though.

Meh. Marauder does need a buff. It should be every bit as good as the Warhammer, but PGI saw fit to grace it with...peanuts....while the WHM got a steak dinner.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 31 October 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

5 tons is near enough as makes no difference, though.

Meh. Marauder does need a buff. It should be every bit as good as the Warhammer, but PGI saw fit to grace it with...peanuts....while the WHM got a steak dinner.

Well, I was able to squeeze two extra DHS out of it.

On an unrelated note, why are Lower Arm/Hand actuators still a thing?

[TheArisen]

FLG 01, on 31 October 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

Without the LFE (and/or other new tech like heavy gauss) no IS assault will be capable of truly competing with the Kodiak. There are, however, a few which could outperform the Kodiak in certain aspects or niches:

• The Nightstar with its torso shape and hardpoint distribution could challenge the Kodiak in long range combat
  
• The Cerberus could mount an impressive array of ballistics, including 4x AC/10 thanks to the MWO mechlab, and it has a high engine cap
  
• The Gunslinger has an excellent choice of hardpoints and comes with ECM
  
• There are better missile boats (Longbow, Viking)
  
• There are better cavalry Mechs (Spartan, Charger)
  
• There are even smaller niches...

... but overall no IS assault can hope to match the Kodiak's combination of speed, endurance and firepower if limited to STD and (IS) XL engines.
If I had to, I'd either try with the Nightstar and keep my distance, or with the Spartan and maneuver into favourable situations (and avoid unfavourable situations).

And if new tech is on the table: Fafnir.

I have to agree, without LFE there's no IS mech that can match up perfectly.

Because they're 95t the Nightstar & Cerberus would have a slight mobility & speed advantage over the 100t KDK but obviously have a slight disadvantage in tonnage.

I think the NSR would do well in midrange combat as well as long range. The real disadvantage would come from side shots because of the NSR's "nose". It would be covered somewhat by the arms but even the Banshee can't completely cover it's torso.

The Cerberus is almost as good really except it'd be better in close quarters because it's humanoid & has Banshee sized arms. Either mech would be excellent & add to the lacking 95 tonner selection.

I like the Gunslinger a lot but it suffers from a barely adequate engine, a 255xl. Once upgraded it doesn't have the tonnage for it's dual gauss but it does have superb energy mounts.

The Spartan I'd be worried it'd just be an IS Gargoyle with missiles. It sadly also has few variants with almost identical HPs. I know this one of your favorites but I'm not sure it'd be better than a Battle master for example.

[50 50]

The Charger?
One of the most bizarre mechs in the TRO's.
I don't see that one getting in without some ridiculous quirks.

I'd have to go with a light mech.
There are still plenty to chose from.

[Ace Selin]

I have always liked the look of the Huron Warrior too....

[TheArisen]

Ace Selin, on 31 October 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I have always liked the look of the Huron Warrior too....

It looks like its got a giant wind fan on it's back instead of JJ or something.

[Ace Selin]

TheArisen, on 31 October 2016 - 09:52 PM, said:

It looks like its got a giant wind fan on it's back instead of JJ or something.

Its an enhanced radar dish

[TheArisen]

Ace Selin, on 31 October 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Its an enhanced radar dish

Yeah I've read up on it. I just like to think of it functioning like MASC, shooting the mech forward or up in the air.

[Bombast]

TheArisen, on 31 October 2016 - 10:28 PM, said:

Yeah I've read up on it. I just like to think of it functioning like MASC, shooting the mech forward or up in the air.

Nah, it's a mech sail. +10% to acceleration when decent winds present.

[FLG 01]

50 50, on 31 October 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

The Charger?
One of the most bizarre mechs in the TRO's.
I don't see that one getting in without some ridiculous quirks.

If you mean the infamously useless Charger 1A1... MWO is not TT. Max engine cap plus energy hardpoints and a favourable geometry including shieldarms is actually not too bad in MWO. Since every hardpoint is in a different location, there is no limit for inflation. This Mech could be good.
Furthermore there are a number of variants more in line with conventional assaults, even if I do not think they would work all that well.

TheArisen, on 31 October 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

I think the NSR would do well in midrange combat as well as long range. The real disadvantage would come from side shots because of the NSR's "nose". It would be covered somewhat by the arms but even the Banshee can't completely cover it's torso.

Brawling is not the strength of this torso shape even if the arms of the NSR are indeed somewhat shielding - at least better than those of the King Crab, which would be more or less obsolete (unless they finally make the dual AC/20 worth it).

TheArisen, on 31 October 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

The Spartan I'd be worried it'd just be an IS Gargoyle with missiles. It sadly also has few variants with almost identical HPs. I know this one of your favorites but I'm not sure it'd be better than a Battle master for example.

The greater problem is that we already have no less than three 80 ton Mechs for the IS. The fact that none of them is particularly impressive – to put it mildly – betrays the awkward spot they are in. They are outmanoeuvred by heavies without having much more firepower, and they are outgunned by assaults without having much better speed. Their compromises kill them.

The Spartan is uncompromising in that it does not even attempt to compete with assaults. As an overweight heavy it entirely relies on its mobility to make an impact (as does the Charger). Cavalry Mechs never do well in one-on-one fights, they excel at supporting the team by quickly making their presence felt wherever needed. Of course that is a niche, and many players may have trouble adapting. I can already see people downgrading the engine in a futile attempt to get a ‘proper’ assault out of it.

As for the Spartan itself, its hardpoints are perfectly suited for the job since you need energy weapons and missiles, not the heavy ballistics. Even without hardpoint inflation I can see a number of viable builds. Not to inflate that post I will refrain from posting them here, unless there is interest.
The lack of variety in the variants is a problem. Also the PGI policy of having five variants plus the hero. But here is a first draft:

Spoiler

SPT-N2 (full canon)

Engine: XL400
Structure: Standard
Armour: Standard
Armament:
1x ER PPC (LT)
1x TAG (LT)
1x AMS (RT)
2x SSRM2 (CT)
3x MPL (RA)
Quirks:
+ 80% acceleration/deceleration
+ 60% torso twist speed
+ 10 structure RA
+ 50% ER PPC velocity
- 20% ER PPC heat (based on the fluff: this particular model of ER PPC runs cooler)


SPT-NF (full canon)

Engine: XL400
Structure: Standard
Armour: Standard
Armament:
1x ER PPC (LT)
1x AMS (RT)
2x SSRM2 (CT)
2x CASE (RT, LT)
3x MPL (RA)
Quirks:
+ 30% acceleration/deceleration
+ 20% torso twist speed
+ 15 structure CT (reflecting the better protection this variant was meant to give)
+ 10 structure RT/LT (reflecting the better protection this variant was meant to give)
+ 10 structure RA
+ 30% ER PPC velocity
- 20% ER PPC heat (based on the fluff: this particular model of ER PPC runs cooler)


SPT-N1 (full canon)

Engine: XL400
Structure: Standard
Armour: Standard
Armament: same as N2, but different hardpoint inflation
Quirks:
+ 80% acceleration/deceleration
+ 60% torso twist speed
+ 10 structure RA
+25% MPL range
- 10% energy weapon heat gen




SPT-N3 (semi-canon, based on 1st SW downgrades; cf. MAD-2R vs MAD-3R)

Engine: STD320
Structure: Standard
Armour: Standard
Armament:
1x PPC (LT)
1x MG (RT)
2x SRM4 (CT)
3x ML (RA)
3x ML (LA)
Quirks:
+ 30% acceleration/deceleration
+ 20% torso twist speed
+ 10 structure CT
+ 7 structure RT/LT
+ 10 structure RA/LA
+ 30% PPC velocity
+ 10% ML cooldown
+ 10% ML range
- 10% energy weapon heat gen

It is actually a rather simple downgrade akin to what can often be seen in the SWs: ML to replace MPL, MG to replace the AMS etc (which also provides a ballistic hardpoint). I had to lower the engine rating or else this would have ended like a Charger.


SPT-NM (non canon)

Engine: XL400
Structure: Standard
Armour: Standard
Armament:
2x ER LL (1x LT, 1x RA)
5x LRM 5 (2x CT, 3x RT)
1x CASE (LT)
Quirks:
+ 30% acceleration/deceleration
+ 20% torso twist speed
-10% missile cooldown
-10% missile heat gen



SPT-DK (Hero Mech of Dag Kesselring)

Engine: XL400
Structure: Standard
Armour: FF
Jump Jets: 4x Class
Armament:
1x LPL (LT)
2x SSRM2 (CT)
3x MPL (RA)
Quirks:
+ 60% acceleration/deceleration
+ 40% torso twist speed
+ 10 structure RA
+ 20% LPL cooldown
+ 20% MPL range
+ 20% SSRM2 range
+ 20% SSRM2 cooldown

Adding jumpjets this one is even more mobile and runs an excellent anti-light&medium armament.

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 31 October 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

Well, I was able to squeeze two extra DHS out of it.

So last night I re-visited the drawing board for the build we're talking about. I reconstructed the Marauder like this, with a single ER PPC, 2xSRM6A, 4xSPL, a full complement of jets, and 17xDHS on an XL360.

It performed stupendously, even on a loss. It's fast, it pops up well, runs fairly cool, has a solid FLD strike with a fairly tight missile grouping, and the SPLs amplify the damage well when you want to deliver the coup de grace. There might be some potential in this after all.

Quote

On an unrelated note, why are Lower Arm/Hand actuators still a thing?

Lore builds, though I actually like lower arm actuators. The ability to move them laterally is invaluable on many 'Mechs.