22 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Not the first time it's been posted around, but good to have more people like the idea as, IMO, making IS XL work like Clan XL is boring. Effective, probably, but totally and completely uninteresting. And the idea posted by the OP is just...way out of left field.

A choice upgrade that maintain asymmetric warfare? Yea, that's way out of the left field apparently.

Straight buff is never the answer. IS XL cannot be made the same as Clan XL, plain and simple. While many have argued, the consensus is this, IS weapon > Clan weapon, Clan mech > IS mech. If you make Clan mech = IS mech, what does that immediately create? Doesn't take a genius. That's why you CANNOT flat buff the IS XL with ridiculous idea of quirks, upgrades, bonuses or what not.

Cause giving extra 20% HP to IS ST and making all IS mechs have effectivefully 3 CTs is a solution to anything...

And again, making IS XL the same as Clan XL then try to incentivize STD use by giving it heat efficiency and bonus HP is as ridiculous as they come. You just gave double bonus upgrade to IS mechs, it will be instant imbalance. Now, I understand if you have a garage full of IS mechs, that would be great for you, cause you, frankly, don't care. But a lot of us purchased Clan tech too.

You know another reason why giving double bonus upgrade to IS mech is absolutely asinine? CAUSE OMNIMECH CAN'T CHANGE ENGINE.

Ultimately, rather than kept trying to pursue this fantasy like how your ideas can somehow balance the game by making all mechs the same (which, is frankly, a valid but boring way to go)... make it so that you are essentially piloting the same mechs with different appearances, OR do we actually enjoy a chance of random and excitement with asymmetric warfare?

The solution really comes down to JUST that. It's not that hard.

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I also feel like I need to respond to the "no brainer" argument. First of all, endo/std structure and FF/std armor switch is never a no brainer. It has to do with your loadout. Second of all, it's still not a no brainer to use DHS over SHS every single time. Now, a lot of time it's true, but the fact is, in select situations, SHS is statistically better. Just because people don't bother to do the math doesn't mean it's a "no brainer."

Also, you can easily argue for a higher heat ceiling vs faster dissipation. Do you want a higher alpha attack without shutting down vs a 1 or 2 seconds faster cooldown? It's a valid argument that most people do not realize that DHS is not twice as good as SHS.

Edited by razenWing, 30 October 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

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IS XL cannot be made the same as Clan XL,

It should be made the same, in that it survives the loss of one side torso but also provide it with greater negative movement/heat penalties. Remember, the primary reason PGI set the isXL to die on the loss of one side torso is the TT rules, three engine crits-destroyed. But MWO does not have actual engine crits, in that nothing actually happens when crits hit an engine component. Once PGI induced first the cXL heat penalty then the movement penalty, they set in place a means to make XL and future LFE similar by surviving the loss of one torso while providing different penalties, in a similar way that other IS and Clan equipment are only slightly different due to weight, crit space, range, damage, duration, cooldown, etc. without completely hampering them.

The difference in game play for the "preferred/competition" IS mechs would be the opponent can no longer XL check a mech via side torso. Take the side torso to remove the components from play but it does not remove that mech completely from play, even if it was using an asymmetric built.

The mechs it would have some benefit would be the lowered tiered mechs, those without the inflated hardpoints. The mechs it would not really benefit are those with low engine caps but the hardpoints, would it be worth it to take an isXL if a side torso is removed, would the player really want to be hit with a 25-30% heat/movement penalty in that particular mech?

For the IS, XL engines were meant to be an upgrade, just like going from STD to DHS. But this is also not the boardgame with rules that were set using dice to determine the outcome of an encounter. The vast XL differences is an outlier that needs to be resolved.

[Y E O N N E]

razenWing, on 30 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

A choice upgrade that maintain asymmetric warfare? Yea, that's way out of the left field apparently.

The high-level concept is not out of left field. Your particular approach to it is.

razenWing, on 30 October 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

A choice upgrade that maintain asymmetric warfare? Yea, that's way out of the left field apparently.

Straight buff is never the answer. IS XL cannot be made the same as Clan XL, plain and simple. While many have argued, the consensus is this, IS weapon > Clan weapon, Clan mech > IS mech. If you make Clan mech = IS mech, what does that immediately create? Doesn't take a genius. That's why you CANNOT flat buff the IS XL with ridiculous idea of quirks, upgrades, bonuses or what not.

That is not the consensus at all, and where on Earth did you pick up that it was?

First off, I don't want isXL operating the same as cXL, I'd rather they stay fragile but instead offer a structure bonus. Kind of like now, but engine-dependent rather than 'Mech-dependent.

Second of all, the 'Mech itself is largely irrelevant. You give a Timberwolf IS equipment through and through and it'll go eat dirt because its hit-boxes suck. You give the Kodiak IS equipment and it merely becomes a slightly better Mauler. You give the 75 ton Marauder Clan Tech and it's going to rip you to pieces (though you will discover that and then some in about a month). That being said, most Clan 'Mechs have inherently inflated numbers of hard-points. Twelve Energy slots? Four missiles and six energy? All running at 104.5 kph? Jesus Christ...

Clan equipment is flat-out better.

Clan ballistics do more damage per second at longer ranges while being smaller and lighter to the extent that you can boat them on 'Mechs whose tonnage precludes such dreams for the Inner Sphere. The lack of PPFLD is simply not a drawback. Any advantage PPFLD would have given you is nullified by incompatible projectile velocities for this use-case and the fact that the cGauss is a thing.

Clan lasers do more damage, more damage per second, more damage per second of burn duration, and have longer range. They only run hot when you try to bring a level of firepower reserved for closer range builds with long range weapons. You were not supposed to be able to fire 4x cERML and 2x cLPL with an effective 500 meters and stay cool and it's actually sort of criminal that an IS 'Mech bringing the same 52-ish points runs just as hot despite missing 200 meters of reach. And then there's the cERSL and cSPL which can be brought in outrageous quantities and melt 'Mechs with incredible heat efficiency. And how about the ability to fire 42-points of damage at 405 meters from six tons without any ghost heat, while an IS 'Mech has to work around 30 at 270 meters? Yeah, no.

Clan missiles are half the weight, and half the size where applicable, allowing you to throw them on anything as supplemental firepower almost as an afterthought. If being able to melt a 'Mech with pure Small Lasers isn't enough, you can do the one-two wombo-combo of a quartet of SRM6 and a sextuplet of Small-class lasers. It's disgusting. Those extra 0.15 points of damage per missile are a pittance compared to the ability to bring four to six of the f*ckers on light, fast platforms with comfortable ammo supply.

After all that now you start adding in the fact that cDHS are 33% smaller, cXL doesn't explode when a side goes missing, Targeting Computers exist, free CASE, and that Clan Endo and Ferro offer the same or better benefits for half the cost. The locked hard-points hardly register as a blip on the raddar.

Even the worst Clan Omnis are still more than competent at some things, and that's after applying currentquirks. There is nothing a Commando can do that a Mist Lynx can't do better. There is nothing a Blackjack can do that an Adder (!) or Shadow Cat can't do just as well. There is nothing an Archer can do that a Summoner or Mad Dog or even Huntsman can't do better. There's nothing a Phoenix Hawk can do that an Ice Ferret can't do better. Even the Highlander IIC and Orion IIC dump all over their Inner Sphere counterparts.

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Cause giving extra 20% HP to IS ST and making all IS mechs have effectivefully 3 CTs is a solution to anything...

You saying something is not a solution doesn't make the statement true.

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And again, making IS XL the same as Clan XL then try to incentivize STD use by giving it heat efficiency and bonus HP is as ridiculous as they come. You just gave double bonus upgrade to IS mechs, it will be instant imbalance. Now, I understand if you have a garage full of IS mechs, that would be great for you, cause you, frankly, don't care. But a lot of us purchased Clan tech too.

I drive both.

But, as you have demonstrated with previous statements, you do not currently understand what is strong in this game and why. So, there is little reason to discuss anything other than that point until you get it. Then we can progress. Suffice it to say, buffing the XLs and STDs (BTW, Clan STD engines would receive the same buff) will not have the impact you think it does.

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You know another reason why giving double bonus upgrade to IS mech is absolutely asinine? CAUSE OMNIMECH CAN'T CHANGE ENGINE.

With literally one exception, Clan OmniMechs have superior load-outs already on sub-optimal engines. There is no problem, here.

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Ultimately, rather than kept trying to pursue this fantasy like how your ideas can somehow balance the game by making all mechs the same (which, is frankly, a valid but boring way to go)... make it so that you are essentially piloting the same mechs with different appearances, OR do we actually enjoy a chance of random and excitement with asymmetric warfare?

The solution really comes down to JUST that. It's not that hard.

I think you will soon discover it is you who has the fantasies, and that what I am saying emphasizes asymmetry quite well. I do not want Medium Lasers that are standing in for ER Mediums, I want Medium lasers that are still short range but burn shorter and colder enough on 'Mechs fast and durable enough to make it worth taking some hits to get into that short range and aren't also completely out-classed by masses of Clan Small lasers. That's not at all what we have right now. Instead we have 'Mechs trying their hardest to emulate what Clan 'Mechs can do, picking the most powerful range and heat-gen and rate-of-fire quirks to get some pseudo-cERML vomit going or some pseudo-cUAC spam. It requires an XL and very specific hard-points and locations to accomplish even on 'Mechs that are decidedly not fast, and your idea just screws it up even further while leaving IS 'Mechs pretty much destitute for mounting anything larger than a f*cking PPC. And just forget about bringing a good number heat-sinks.