55 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

SplashDown, on 29 October 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

Well its a population issue..ive played several matches today that had alot of the same names as the last match.
Blame the whinners..and there nerf this nerf that..they are the ones running every-1 off

Safe bet it is the monotony of MWO that is running people off.

[Wintersdark]

El Bandito, on 29 October 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

[font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]Perhaps you don't, but I have seen 3-year vets play like absolute potatoes.

A better tutorial or NPE isn't going to help them though. If they suck after 3 years, they'll suck forever.

NPE only helps retain border cases, people who'd quit because it was too confusing. Basically everyone else will figure it out quickly enough.

If anything a small group of newish players advance to slightly less potato a bit quicker.

Butt yeah, no amount of great tutorials is going to make people who've got more than a hundred drops any better.

[DaZur]

Wintersdark, on 29 October 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Butt yeah, no amount of great tutorials is going to make people who've got more than a hundred drops any better.

Why are you guys looking at me?!

[Xmith]

El Bandito, on 29 October 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Played two matches today, won both, so no MM issue here. Then again, it was most likely due to the KDK-3 I piloted.




Perhaps you don't, but I have seen 3-year vets play like absolute potatoes.

I have potatoed a few times myself

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 29 October 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Butt yeah, no amount of great tutorials is going to make people who've got more than a hundred drops any better.

That reads as "I've given up on humanity."

There's too many stubborn people that don't realize that they could play better... but either are oblivious to it or unwilling. There's a lot of the vocal latter, but there's a fair chance of the former.

[Appogee]

I quit playing yesterday after my 5th straight loss, while trying to carry 5 players who couldn't do more than 100 damage. I went and did something enjoyable instead.

I find the weirdest thing about the matchmaker is the way it doesn't distribute the really good players equally.

In 3 PUG matches yesterday I was put up against teams that had 3 or 4 well-known players from units that are in the World Championship finals. On my team: mostly potatoes... at least, as far as the score 2-12 and their personal damage contributions (100 or less) indicated.

Besides tonnage matching (which I agree is another failing) why can't we at least get equal distribution of skilled players?

Edited by Appogee, 29 October 2016 - 10:44 PM.

[meteorol]

Yeah, it's somewhat annoying.

Given you can often expect around 2-3 KDK-3 per match, it sucks to see trash tier assault mechs on your team, because chances are you will now go up against 2-3 KDK-3.

This is not a pure assaultclass issue though. Often times you can correctly predict a 0:12 curbstomp just from looking at your team an the mechs they use. 9 utterly trashtier mechs on your team somewhat reduce the chances of winning. But that's what happens when almost anyone can reach T1 and MM does not take into consideration what mech is used.

[DAYLEET]

Cathy, on 29 October 2016 - 01:52 PM, said:

Both sides had three assaults side A had Zeus, Victor, Awesome, side B had KDK-3 Atlas D-DC, Direwolf.

Yesterday i had a match with 3kd+another assault and the other side had 4 random assault guess how that went. I was on the other side btw. Also had match where they have one more assault and the only kd. Im sure ive had the same imbalance on my side. I just decided not to check when i win and pretend it was a good match. Because i just got back into the game and it really wants me to go play something else already.

[MrMadguy]

That's because MM cares about broken PSR rating, that is actually meaningless, rather than caring about player's personal performance and 'Mech's battle value, lol.

Many players have already said it 100500 times, that in most stomp matches simple team shuffling would make game 100500 times better.

Edited by MrMadguy, 29 October 2016 - 11:11 PM.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Wintersdark, on 29 October 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

Never, because it's not a coding issue, it's a population issue. Unless they decide that MASSIVELY longer waits for matches for everyone is acceptable (and maybe even then) matches are going to remain highly random.

I haven't had a problem with randomness today - every single team I've had has been utterly useless

[Ghogiel]

Audacious Aubergine, on 29 October 2016 - 11:12 PM, said:

I haven't had a problem with randomness today - every single team I've had has been utterly useless

touche

[Tarl Cabot]

Prosperity Park, on 29 October 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Part of the issue is that the Matchmaker compiles a team of 12 players and then compiles another team to match them. It does not simply compile 24 players and then divide them up evenly according to tonnage.

Does it really pick an entire side first before going to the next side? Would it not be better, across the board if it was done via lance side?

Quote

You're waiting a long time because there aren't enough people at your tier available, so it's got to stretch bounds further. Population is the issue.

It's using the same system as it does for potatoes. Of course, there's more potatoes, but then the system is much "wider" for T3 players than it is for T1 players.

Just to be clear, team one is selected and say the 1st player seeded was Tier 2, and the MM gobbled them all up. Now for team two, it is able to find a few Tier 2, a Tier 1 and the rest being Tier 3 with the appropriate weights.


Of course, what is noted in the following thread, many components of it can be applied to the QP, especially about communication and working as a team.
http://mwomercs.com/...e-maps-are-bad/

[Ghogiel]

Tarl Cabot, on 30 October 2016 - 01:51 AM, said:

Does it really pick an entire side first before going to the next side? Would it not be better, across the board if it was done via lance side?

afaik It's never been stated it does that. It should be pulling players from the availible in the bucket, which allows it match PSR delta and weight classes across the 2 teams. So the answer is maybe (imo unlikely, probably works like it used to with instead of a target player Elo but with a target PSR.)

Edited by Ghogiel, 30 October 2016 - 01:58 AM.

[GreyNovember]

So population thought.

Let's assume Population is in fact the issue. We flood the game with a bunch of new players.

This doesn't necessarily fix the issue. They'd first have to Git Gud.

Then they'd have to make their mechs Git Gud.

How long do you think this will take, for the sake of bumping the skill level up?

And on a tangent, do you WANT more effective players all around? That'd be like an arms race. Suddenly more people perform better. This translates to mistakes punished harder.

"Muh TTK is TOO LOW "

etc.

[Ghogiel]

GreyNovember, on 30 October 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

So population thought.

Let's assume Population is in fact the issue. We flood the game with a bunch of new players.

This doesn't necessarily fix the issue. They'd first have to Git Gud.

Then they'd have to make their mechs Git Gud.

How long do you think this will take, for the sake of bumping the skill level up?

And on a tangent, do you WANT more effective players all around? That'd be like an arms race. Suddenly more people perform better. This translates to mistakes punished harder.

"Muh TTK is TOO LOW "

etc.

If you flooded the game with new players flling all the spectrum of player abilities it wouldn't fix PSR, but it would accomodate a more robust MMing solution certainly. Right now anyting more precise would just take too long for the outliers in the skill spectrum, PGI wants high level to ok players in the same bucket because separating them would cause issues due to player counts in those brackets. Which is why the tiers only work so far. But they do work to a degree, at least PGI thinks so, and I agree> just drop in a T3 alt and every other match when you don't have the T1 fillers, you get the T4-5 fillers and it's a hilarious farm.

Edited by Ghogiel, 30 October 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Ghogiel, on 30 October 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

If you flooded the game with new players flling all the spectrum of player abilities it wouldn't fix PSR, but it would accomodate a more robust MMing solution certainly. Right now anyting more precise would just take too long for the outliers in the skill spectrum, PGI wants high level to ok players in the same bucket because separating them would cause issues due to player counts in those brackets. Which is why the tiers only work so far. But they do work to a degree, at least PGI thinks so, and I agree> just drop in a T3 alt and every other match when you don't have the T1 fillers, you get the T4-5 fillers and it's a hilarious farm.

Leaving the alt bit aside, this. You'd need a lot more players and enough time for those players to Git Gud, THEN you could look at a better MM system. As things stand, PSR basically exists purely to protect new players from experienced players but does basically nothing else, and that's ok because there's not enough players to make a better system do anything at all. You're basically limited to having a full third of the player base eligible for any given match as a bare minimum, and that's a VERY coarse criteria.

[Dee Eight]

The problem is also as many know, that since the PSR progression is slanted towards damage output, that new players who buy dakka bears and lurm boats and splat jenners and so forth, quickly rise the tiers even if they have no other skills/experience beyond that. I did surmise also early on here that there seemed to be a lot of morons in trial assaults, and maybe that there should be some sort of enforced goal requirement with trial mechs before new players could access the trial assaults.

[PhoenixFire55]

Once upon a time we had a matchmaker that drew random people in matching mechs, was finding matches in 5 seconds and produced far better balanced matches. But alas, idiots made rivers of tears on the forum and so apparently MM was fixed. Then fixed again. Then scratched alltogether and fixed again. Got a hint yet?

A very important point is what you deem a balanced match. Because my experience of playing MWO competitively in various leagues for four years tells me that two absolutely evenly matched teams can have their drop end 8-0 score, and 10 mins later the next drop between same people will end with 0-8 score. PUGs are far more random but the snowball effect is still present. You can't see the whole picture when you are in a match yourself and thus you can't judge if it was balanced or not. Tonnage, amount of Kodiaks or whatever else that comes into mind is irrelevant.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 31 October 2016 - 04:03 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Wintersdark, on 29 October 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

A better tutorial or NPE isn't going to help them though. If they suck after 3 years, they'll suck forever.

NPE only helps retain border cases, people who'd quit because it was too confusing. Basically everyone else will figure it out quickly enough.

If anything a small group of newish players advance to slightly less potato a bit quicker.

Butt yeah, no amount of great tutorials is going to make people who've got more than a hundred drops any better.

Agreed there are people that have played this game since beta that still can't grasp the fundamentals, or refuse to, no amount of changing the NPE is going to make them more aware.

Testing grounds and the training area are simply better than World of Tanks, Armoured Warfare, War Thunder, it's vastly superior to Rise of Flight, and world of warships has no in game tutorial at all,also while not the same type of game it better than Guild Wars 2, Aion, Xcom 2.

You can spend hours if you want to walking around each map on testing grounds, working out fields of fire, and where the kill boxes are, where the worse choke points are, where you can set up good fire bases.

No other game I know of allows this.

No amount of additions to what is simply the best facility of any game I know of, is going to make things better, for a new player,

Newbs learn, and become good players or the best because newbs naturally turn into vets.

NOOBS refuse to, because they are NOOBS

[C E Dwyer]

El Bandito, on 29 October 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Safe bet it is the monotony of MWO that is running people off.

World of Tanks has the same level of repetitiveness, or monotony as you call it, yet has thousands more playing the game, and have played it longer, sorry but your point of view isn't valid