33 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 30 October 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Well, that is Mystere's schtick.

The problem if you bother to track posting history... Mystere's in favor of imbalances, regardless of reason. finding other avenues of balance beyond the higly simplistic method of being restricted to only Mechs and weapons.

FTFY.

And no, Energy Draw is not one of them.

Edited by Mystere, 30 October 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 30 October 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Well, that is Mystere's schtick.

The problem if you bother to track posting history... Mystere's in favor of imbalances, regardless of reason.

Mystere's schtick is to always make sideways comments and amuse herself when she thinks people don't get it. She likes the lore and wants to keep it in-game and that's really the extent of her position.

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

FTFY.

And no, Energy Draw is not one of them.

You do realize that asymmetrical teams is even more simplistic, yes?

And TBQH, the reason nobody talks about asymmetry is because PGI has said time after time after time that they will not do it, so nobody cares to fight that fight anymore. I personally don't care either way, but I will say that I think the Clans, and even BattleTech as you long time fans know it, are both stupid and need to be re-booted and re-written. This game world could be so much more interesting than it currently is.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

Mystere's schtick is to always make sideways comments and amuse herself when she thinks people don't get it. She likes the lore and wants to keep it in-game and that's really the extent of her position.

Busted!

Almost.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

You do realize that asymmetrical teams is even more simplistic, yes?

That is arguably true if only by itself. But if you check my posting history, I'm for:

• Mechs
  
• weapons
  
• equipment
  
• maps
  
• numbers
  
• game modes (including the elimination of any and all mixed drops, with the possible exception of groop queue)
  
• victory conditions
  
• etc.

That's at least 7 dimensions vs. 2.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

And TBQH, the reason nobody talks about asymmetry is because PGI has said time after time after time that they will not do it, so nobody cares to fight that fight anymore. I personally don't care either way, but I will say that I think the Clans, and even BattleTech as you long time fans know it, are both stupid and need to be re-booted and re-written. This game world could be so much more interesting than it currently is.

And yet PGI implemented 3PV and coolshots after saying they will not do so.

And considering PGI's propensity to eventually get weak-kneed ...

[Angel of Annihilation]

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Strikes were massively nerfed several months ago. Blame all the loud crybabies who incessantly whined to PGI day in and day out about them.

There is a player-based reason

why we cannot have good things in MWO,

much less great ones.

I think they were way over the top. I mean technically you can have a total of 12 strikes per team. Stack those strikes and the damage can be a bit over the top.

That being said, they do serve a valuable purpose though they are seldom used correctly. Instead of people thinking of them as something to increase their individual damage with, think of them as a useful disruption and suppression tool. You have an enemy team giving you a full press around a corner so drop a couple strikes on them. As soon as the smoke pops up, they will scatter and many will retreat which will totally disrupt and suppress the rush. Drop 2-3 strikes in coordination and you have significant suppression going on, maybe giving your team enough time to rally and push them back hard. But like I said, no one uses them for that or at least not often.

The other issue is the cost. Even the basic C-bill version is 40k C-bills. Using one is a significant chunk of your C-bill earnings for that match which I generally find hard to justify when everything costs so much in the game. Also because of the lack of coordination in teams at least on the PUG level, you won't often find that you will be able to maximize their usage and I can pretty much guarantee you that you don't get 40k worth of value out of them.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

That is arguably true if only by itself. But if you check my posting history, I'm for:

• Mechs
  
• weapons
  
• equipment
  
• maps
  
• numbers
  
• game modes (including the elimination of any and all mixed drops, with the possible exception of groop queue)
  
• victory conditions
  
• etc.

That's at least 7 dimensions vs. 2.

To be fair, you have actually only added 1 more dimension to the balance discussion. Nobody ever argued that 'Mechs and weapons (which I actually lump in with equipment...they are merely a subset of equipment) were the only points of contention. Maps, victory conditions, game modes (which I should think victory conditions and team numbers would be part and parcel to) are all very hotly debated topics.

However, 'Mechs and equipment are among the easiest to change, and have less inherent inter-dependence on maps and game modes, and doing so would at least make the current game more tolerable until such time PGI decides they want to do some re-architecting of their "vision."

Hence why they get hammered on so much.

Quote

And yet PGI implemented 3PV and coolshots after saying they will not do so.

And considering PGI's propensity to eventually get weak-kneed ...

Level-of-effort. 3PV is relatively easy to do, and I actually think it's already a feature built into the engine. Re-architecting the entire game, though, is more of a monumental task.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

To be fair, you have actually only added 1 more dimension to the balance discussion. Nobody ever argued that 'Mechs and weapons (which I actually lump in with equipment...they are merely a subset of equipment)

The separate "equipment" bullet point refers to, for example, the Clans having individual-oriented sensors and other equipment while the IS have team-oriented ones (i.e. network-based equipment similar to that found in Battlestar Galactica -- which in itself opens more gameplay possibilities).

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Level-of-effort. 3PV is relatively easy to do, and I actually think it's already a feature built into the engine. Re-architecting the entire game, though, is more of a monumental task.

But it is a task that is required if PGI has any hope of saving/growing the game.

Edited by Mystere, 30 October 2016 - 09:52 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Strikes were massively nerfed several months ago. Blame all the loud crybabies who incessantly whined to PGI day in and day out about them.

There is a player-based reason

why we cannot have good things in MWO,

much less great ones.

Were they the same people that whined about coolant flush ?

Edited by Cathy, 30 October 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[WarHippy]

Appogee, on 29 October 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

Did Artillery and Air Strikes get majorly nerfed a month or two ago?

I've noticed that they seem to hit much less frequently now, and also, seem to do less damage? So it feels like the blast radius was made much smaller and the damage also decreased.

Can anyone share with me any facts on any nerfing of strikes in recent history?










Note: I am not a fan of strikes. I think there are too many of them in the game and that the "pay to do extra damage at no extra tonnage" mechanic is not a good one.

They were massively nerfed and [retty much a completel waste of c-bills/gxp/time/etc.. Like them or hate them if they are in the game they should be useful beyond a visual.

[DrxAbstract]

Dee Eight, on 30 October 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

The ironic bit to the shrinking of the radius is they effectively gave everyone who used them a super duper accuracy module. It used to be 75m radius as I recall for the 5 or 10 shells to fall into and the 4 million c-bill module could shrink that 20% to 60m. Well now its been shrunk 60% for everyone, and if you use the module it drops to a 24m radius to put the shells into.

Incorrect. The radius of both Air Strike Bombs and Artillery Shells was reduced to 30m (It was 40m) - Hint: Air Strikes drop in a straight line... The radius reduction applies to the distance from the explosion epicenter, not the smoke. Artillery Shells themselves drop in an 75-80m maximum radius from the smoke, so it is possible to take damage standing 100+/- meters from the smoke itself, making the diameter of area of effect 200+/- meters.

You can easily test this on the flat plains in Frozen City using a Locust (Shortest Mech) and dropping an arty strike 80m away, which according to your assertions, will not hit you... Don't be shocked when it does. I tried it at 70m after the changes and the bloody shell landed behind me off to the right a bit - took out the armor on my arm and right rear torso.

[Mawai]

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Strikes were massively nerfed several months ago. Blame all the loud crybabies who incessantly whined to PGI day in and day out about them.

There is a player-based reason

why we cannot have good things in MWO,

much less great ones.

As much as I might agree with you in general ... I can't subscribe to the implication that air and arty strikes were even good much less great.

UAV? That is good ... maybe even bordering on great. Arty and air strikes as currently designed ... not even close.

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 30 October 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

As much as I might agree with you in general ... I can't subscribe to the implication that air and arty strikes were even good much less great.

UAV? That is good ... maybe even bordering on great. Arty and air strikes as currently designed ... not even close.

As I have already said countless times like a broken record, artillery and air strikes should hurt, really hurt. That is their nature. But, that does not preclude changes in mechanics such as, for example, requiring TAG to paint the target area or even -- gasp! -- 'Mech.

And while we're on the subject of strikes, why not add more for variety in tactical options:

• smoke/chaff rounds - for cover, for blinding the enemy
  
• airbursts - increased chance of damage on upper half of mech
  
• mines/cluster bombs - increased chance of damage on lower have of mech, area denial
  
• sticky incendiaries - massive heat induced on enemy

Edited by Mystere, 30 October 2016 - 08:36 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Mystere, on 30 October 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

As I have already said countless times like a broken record, artillery and air strikes should hurt, really hurt. That is their nature. But, that does not preclude changes in mechanics such as, for example, requiring TAG to paint the target area or even -- gasp! -- 'Mech.

And while we're on the subject of strikes, why not add more for variety in tactical options:

• smoke/chaff rounds - for cover, for blinding the enemy
  
• airbursts - increased chance of damage on upper half of mech
  
• mines/cluster bombs - increased chance of damage on lower have of mech, area denial
  
• sticky incendiaries - massive heat induced on enemy

I feel like Strikes are a poor stand-in for 'Mech-mounted alternatives, i.e. 'Mech Mortars.

[Mcgral18]

DrxAbstract, on 30 October 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Incorrect. The radius of both Air Strike Bombs and Artillery Shells was reduced to 30m (It was 40m) - Hint: Air Strikes drop in a straight line... The radius reduction applies to the distance from the explosion epicenter, not the smoke. Artillery Shells themselves drop in an 75-80m maximum radius from the smoke, so it is possible to take damage standing 100+/- meters from the smoke itself, making the diameter of area of effect 200+/- meters.

You can easily test this on the flat plains in Frozen City using a Locust (Shortest Mech) and dropping an arty strike 80m away, which according to your assertions, will not hit you... Don't be shocked when it does. I tried it at 70m after the changes and the bloody shell landed behind me off to the right a bit - took out the armor on my arm and right rear torso.

Sounds about right

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeStats" name="Air_Strike" id="4027">
<PilotModuleStats slot="Consumable" talentname="ePTAirStrike" talentid="27"/>
<Loc iconTag="EfficiencyIcons\Priority_Air_Strike.png" descTag="@Air_Strike_desc" nameTag="@Air_Strike"/>
<ConsumableStats maxUses="1" equipType="StrategicStrike"/>
<!--Radius = distance between each bomb drop in a straight line-->

<!--Radius2 = radius of explosive-->

<!--Radius3 = side to side variation of the bomb drop-->

<StrategicStrikeStats effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" duration="0.6" material="mat_artillery" effect2="" damage="15.0" delay="5.0" radius2="30.0" radius="21.0" variation="0.05" num="6" type="1" radius3="7.5"/>
</Module>

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeStats" name="Priority_Air_Strike" id="4031">
<PilotModuleStats slot="Consumable"/>
<Loc iconTag="EfficiencyIcons\Priority_Air_Strike.png" descTag="@Priority_Air_Strike_desc" nameTag="@Priority_Air_Strike"/>
<ConsumableStats maxUses="1" equipType="StrategicStrike"/>
<!--Radius = distance and randomization distance of each bomb drop in a straight line-->

<!--Radius2 = radius of explosive-->

<StrategicStrikeStats effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" duration="1.0" material="mat_artillery" effect2="" damage="15.0" delay="4.0" radius2="30.0" radius="15.0" variation="0.05" num="10" type="1" radius3="7.5"/>
</Module>

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeStats" name="Artillery_Strike" id="4026">
<PilotModuleStats slot="Consumable" talentname="ePTArtilleryStrike" talentid="26"/>
<Loc iconTag="EfficiencyIcons\ePTArtilleryStrike.png" descTag="@Artillery_Strike_desc" nameTag="@Artillery_Strike"/>
<ConsumableStats equipType="StrategicStrike" maxuses="1"/>
<!--Radius = radius of artillery area, bomb randomly plop into area-->

<!--Radius2 = radius of explosive-->

<!--Delay = delay before the first projectile is spawned-->

<!--Duration = Time bewteen the first and last projectile spawn-->

<!--Variation = Randomized time variation between shots +- seconds-->

<StrategicStrikeStats effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" duration="3.0" material="mat_artillery" effect2="mech_weapons.autocannon_20.trail" damage="15.0" delay="5.0" radius2="30.0" radius="75.0" variation="0.1" num="6"/>
</Module>

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeStats" name="Priority_Artillery_Strike" id="4030">
<PilotModuleStats slot="Consumable"/>
<Loc iconTag="EfficiencyIcons\Priority_Artillery_Strike.png" descTag="@Priority_Artillery_Strike_desc" nameTag="@Priority_Artillery_Strike"/>
<ConsumableStats maxUses="1" equipType="StrategicStrike"/>
<StrategicStrikeStats effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" duration="3.0" material="mat_artillery" effect2="mech_weapons.autocannon_20.trail" damage="15.0" delay="4.0" radius2="30.0" radius="75.0" variation="0.1" num="10"/>
</Module>

Now, I'm not sure if Delay is changed at all...

TercieI, on 30 October 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

Improved strikes are identical to Priority strikes and cost a one-time GXP fee to unlock, no module required. The modules are a separate deal, tighten spread and are generally considered worthless.

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeUpgrade" name="Artillery_Strike_Accuracy_Module" id="4016"><PilotModuleStats summaryTag="@pt_summary_artillery_accuracy" slot="Pilot" talentname="ePTArtilleryAccuracy" talentid="15"/>
<!--upgrade = if strategic strike module is an upgrade module : if it is any values in the modules will be factored to those of strategic strikes (ie) 0.8 shrinks value by 20%-->
<!--effects and material strings will be replaced with those of the upgrade if listed-->

<StrategicStrikeStats material="mat_artillery" effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" damage="1.0" delay="1.0" radius2="1.0" radius="0.8" variation="1.0" duration="1.0"/></Module>

-<Module CType="CStrategicStrikeUpgrade" name="Air_Strike_Accuracy_Module" id="4015"><PilotModuleStats summaryTag="@pt_summary_airstrike_accuracy" slot="Pilot" talentname="ePTAirstrikeAccuracy" talentid="14"/>
<!--upgrade = if strategic strike module is an upgrade module : if it is any values in the modules will be factored to those of strategic strikes (ie) 0.8 shrinks value by 20%-->
<!--effects and material strings will be replaced with those of the upgrade if listed-->

<StrategicStrikeStats material="mat_artillery" effect="mech_weapons.artillery.smoke_marker" damage="1.0" delay="1.0" radius2="1.0" radius="0.8" variation="1.0" duration="1.0" effect2=""/>
</Module>

yes

[Rhent]

A UAV is better than a strike now.