61 replies to this topic

[Besh]

Flitzomat, on 31 October 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

From all the people I tried to persuade to play MWO I never heard it is a bad game. The contrary was the case. They just don´t find Mechs to be of any interest.
This game could be all you whished for and players population would be only slightly higher at best.

Get over it, we are like Gremlins living in a dark niche of the Gaming World... But I like it here

Im guessing: population at this moment is somewhere around 40k . Probably only 3/4th of that, considering all the alts .
Guessing again: the Founders for MW:O alone were about double than that, if not more .

IF MW:O would have been made to be the immersive Role and Faction Warfare Game it was promised to be, not only would many of those founder still play it - and throw loads of money at it - it would additionally attract players just for what it would be .

Imho...

p.s: during CB/early OB, there were Unit who were THAT hyped about the whole thing, they were actually getting mugs, shirts, caps etc. with the UnitTag/Insignia getting made, to proudly wear on MechCons, TT venues etc...thats the kind of enthusiasm this Game was met with initially .

Edited by Besh, 31 October 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Flitzomat]

Bombast, on 31 October 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, how many of those people you convinced to play still do?

None (one bought the first resistance pack though, but he realized that he is more the fantasy sort of guy playing mmorpgs)

They never realy got started, that’s the point. But not because they think what they saw was bad, but because of Mechs not interesting them at all. If you like this setting, as I suppose we all do, it is maybe hard to believe that 99% think it is total bs.
Why do you think TT is dead as FW…

But this is not an exclusive experiencce. This is how it is for basically everyone I talked to about this topic.

Besh, on 31 October 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Im guessing: population at this moment is somewhere around 40k . Probably only 3/4th of that, considering all the alts .
Guessing again: the Founders for MW:O alone were about double than that, if not more .

IF MW:O would have been made to be the immersive Role and Faction Warfare Game it was promised to be, not only would many of those founder still play it - and throw loads of money at it - it would additionally attract players just for what it would be .

Imho...

p.s: during CB/early OB, there were Unit who were THAT hyped about the whole thing, they were actually getting mugs, shirts, caps etc. with the UnitTag/Insignia getting made, to proudly wear on MechCons, TT venues etc...thats the kind of enthusiasm this Game was met with initially .

Maybe. But my old unit had many of these founders. I heard a lot of grumpy old man not able to keep up with game mechanics complaining all day about absolutely everything. They would never have stayed because they always found something. That´s why I think these theories are self-denial.

P.s.: On the other hand the new battletech could be something for them they were always looking for and I would like to see a deeper cooperation besides sharing artworks but I think this is self-denial too.

Edited by Flitzomat, 31 October 2016 - 07:38 AM.

[1453 R]

I'm going to be that guy and say that Piranha's problem isn't money.

They seem to be doing pretty much fine, money-wise. They had cash to renovate their building (unlike the rest of y'all, I don't blame them for doing so with 'our' money, for reasons I'm about to get into), they have cash to pay their bills, they have cash to do whatever they seem to need to. Obviously without a summary of their fiscal reports they don't release to us I can't say for sure, but they don't seem like a company that's more desperate to steal my money than any other company is.

Piranha's problem seems to be focus. They don't have it, and on the rare occasions when they turn a bit of it up they don't know where/how to direct it. Energy Draw is only the latest example - they started with a feature designed to replace Ghost Heat and ended up with a feature designed to...I dunno. Maybe replace Ghost Heat but also do three other things? It's good that they went in for a big community testing phase, I will give them mad props for actually sticking to their **** and testing Energy Draw - and pulling it for review when it tested poorly - but after the first iteration or two it felt like Piranha didn't really know what they wanted to do with it, what they were hoping to accomplish. They were just reacting almost blindly to whatever the biggest threads of complaint were on ED and hoping they pulled the right levers.

Piranha can afford to modify MWO. They wouldn't be talking about engine changes if they couldn't. Their issue isn't something Kickstarter can solve, unless they have a Kickstarter for "hiring us a couple of new programmers so we have more of the meat-and-potatoes systems engineering manpower we're always critically short on!"...and we all know how Piranha trying to crowdfund their staffing efforts would go. Short of hiring those new programmers, money can't fix their issues.

Piranha needs a strong vision for this game - they need to know where they want it to be in five years, to coin a tired old management phrase. They need that vision to be clearly communicated and something the player base can get behind, and they need to start making strides towards that vision. We're all still here, a lot of us can be won over again, but they're not going to do any winning with this muddle-through-and-hope seat-of-the-pants development style they've been using for a while now. Bug fixes are great, we'll always take those. Updates to maps are cool*, especially things like Mordor. But let's face it - the game has been in 'Maintenance Mode' since before the Transverse fugg-up as it is. Not because Piranha necessarily wants it to be, but because they don't seem to know how to deliver anything else.

Community Warfare is basically a bigger, bloated Quick Play nobody has time or inclination for because the core game mode is implemented exceptionally poorly. Every attempt Piranha makes to redux the regular quick-play modes falls on its face - partially because players seem to hate anything and everything that isn't Skirmish, and partially because they never seem to be able to make any big development plays and do something really out there designed for their game. Scouting mode is the closest we've gotten, and while promising, it's also troublesome to balance and flawed in implementation itself.

And we all know Russ' stance on FutureTech or any other systems-based way to try and invigorate the game. Damn him.

So yeah. Money's not going to fix any of that. More money just means Piranha will do more of what it's currently been doing, which nobody really wants. 'MWO 2.0' is a horrendously bad idea, unless it's a rebuild of MWO 1.0 where everyone keeps their ****, because if Piranha told me they wanted me to buy into their new MechWarrior game, but sorry 1453, all the hundreds and hundreds of dollars you pumped into MWO when you believed in us are forfeit?

Yeah. F*** DAT. Much like Wintersdark, I'd track the project with some interest, but I would not be spending money on MWO 2 without some very good evidence that this time, Piranha was going to back up their talk. Because their track record at talking a great game they can't play is unfortunately more prevalent than their track record of backing up their smack. Sure, this time they'd have a better idea of what they could and couldn't do...but again, why are we throwing the baby out with the bathwater and starting over in the first place?

[Bombast]

Flitzomat, on 31 October 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

None

They never realy got started, that’s the point. But not because they think what they saw was bad, but because of Mechs not interesting them at all.

I get what you're trying to say, but... that means it's kind of bad.

If the only reason to play the game is because you're attached to the idea of mecha (And that is my reason), then the game itself is flawed.

Quote

If you like this setting, as I suppose we all do, it is maybe hard to believe that 99% think it is total bs.

MWO is a poor representation of the setting, though. So one can hardly blame the setting itself.

Quote

Why do you think TT is dead as FW…

Tabletop games, in general, have a smaller user base then video games. And TT is most definitely not dead. It's niche, to be sure, but that's just how most table top games roll these days, excluding W40K.

[GRiPSViGiL]

Blackice001, on 30 October 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

So the Battletech online kick starter is over with, They raised over 2.5 mill for the game development scheduled to be released in about 2 years. It will have everything the MWO does not have. Unfortunately its not a FPS. But it will be the only other game in this genre. That would be called " a choice ". Why can't MWO pull a kick starter to raise money for a MWO 2.0 and try to release it about the same time? I'm sure they could raise enough money to do a good engine overhaul and add in a crap ton of new features and content. Economy, mech repair and upkeep, complete overhaul on faction warfare. Maybe even add in vehicles and a better exp system... Little bit of immersion here, I'd like to improve my pilots skills, rather than buy a mech with bonuses on weapons I don't use., There really is no limit to the number of improvements that could be done. They could address other things like a map making tools for the players to make their own maps and post they for others to play on. How about faction warfare players having bases that can be raided?, Sky's the limit here !

Hey Dev's would you consider doing a kick starter and listening to the community to find out all the features we would like to see added? Don't scrap the current game, just do a re-release

MWO 2.0

Who in their right mind would Fing give PGI money for it? This community is crazy.....what is with this suggestion that keeps coming up lately?

What have they done with MWO that people would even fathom supporting an MWO2?

[Flitzomat]

Bombast, on 31 October 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

I get what you're trying to say, but... that means it's kind of bad.

If the only reason to play the game is because you're attached to the idea of mecha (And that is my reason), then the game itself is flawed.

Ah come on. There are tons of great, hack even superb games out there attracting millions of players. In every genre. And I play zero, Nada, zip of them because I am not interested.

[blood4blood]

I think Bombast has a point though - I got into BT through playing MW2, and I played MW2 because I saw the FASA logo and I'd played Shadowrun before. MW2 led to MW3, MW4, and MWO for me - I'm a founder based on the strength of prior titles and the franchise IP as a whole.

Hypothetical: drop all the MW/BT trappings from MWO, rename all the mechs, remove references to Clan and Inner Sphere, etc. Leave all the game mechanics and items in place. Would it significantly change the game play experience? I don't think it would. That's something prior titles just did better, from the NPE to PvE especially, but it was clear that there was a reason to be on one faction or another, the planetary campaigns had effects in-game, etc. I'm still hopeful, but I have to admit it would be very hard for me to just drop $120 in PGI's lap as a Founder 2.0 on promises alone. Without seeing some functional product beforehand, I really doubt that I'd do it.

[0bsidion]

Blackice001, on 30 October 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

So the Battletech online kick starter is over with, They raised over 2.5 mill for the game development scheduled to be released in about 2 years. It will have everything the MWO does not have. Unfortunately its not a FPS. But it will be the only other game in this genre. That would be called " a choice ". Why can't MWO pull a kick starter to raise money for a MWO 2.0 and try to release it about the same time? I'm sure they could raise enough money to do a good engine overhaul and add in a crap ton of new features and content. Economy, mech repair and upkeep, complete overhaul on faction warfare. Maybe even add in vehicles and a better exp system... Little bit of immersion here, I'd like to improve my pilots skills, rather than buy a mech with bonuses on weapons I don't use., There really is no limit to the number of improvements that could be done. They could address other things like a map making tools for the players to make their own maps and post they for others to play on. How about faction warfare players having bases that can be raided?, Sky's the limit here !

Hey Dev's would you consider doing a kick starter and listening to the community to find out all the features we would like to see added? Don't scrap the current game, just do a re-release

MWO 2.0

There's no such thing as Battletech Online. If you're talking about the HBS Battletech game, it is primarily a single player game with a few multiplayer options thrown in as a bonus, but in no way is it intended to be a MMOG of any sort. And that Kickstarter was done quite some time ago.

As for MWO 2.0, the only way I'd accept and/or help fund that is if it was passed over to an entirely different development studio.

Edited by 0bsidion, 31 October 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[Peter2k]

Somehow I would have a problem spending even a single dollar on MWO 2 after PGI would announce MWO is unsalvageable and me having spent over 1k on MWO

;-)

Even if I had "only" spent 100$'s, it's still the same company, led by the same person
With the same coders and yada yada yada

Why would they have it in them to turn it all around all of a sudden with the same human resources and leadership?

Nothing is stopping PGI from improving MWO's gameplay, maps and what not
If I hadn't been around so long I might even be enthusiastic for the big announcement

But frankly I'd rather hear from Hairbrained that they're doing addons

[0bsidion]

1453 R, on 31 October 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Piranha can afford to modify MWO. They wouldn't be talking about engine changes if they couldn't. Their issue isn't something Kickstarter can solve, unless they have a Kickstarter for "hiring us a couple of new programmers so we have more of the meat-and-potatoes systems engineering manpower we're always critically short on!"...and we all know how Piranha trying to crowdfund their staffing efforts would go. Short of hiring those new programmers, money can't fix their issues.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said except this bit here. Back when I was giving them the benefit of the doubt I suspected it might be an issue of being understaffed. Then I did a bit of research, and it's not the case. They've got the staff, they're just being mismanaged.

So they can hire more workers all they want, but if those workers are mishandled they're just wasting more time and resources but not really accomplishing any more than what they have been. What they really need is better leadership. And that ties in with what you said about focus.

Right now it seems only the mech making department has any sort of leadership and focus, and that's probably why MWO is still up and running. But they won't be able to carry MWO forever. Eventually all they'll be left with is a handful of diehards and MWO will collapse unless the other departments get their ***t together.

[1453 R]

0bsidion, on 31 October 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

I agree with pretty much everything else you said except this bit here. Back when I was giving them the benefit of the doubt I suspected it might be an issue of being understaffed. Then I did a bit of research, and it's not the case. They've got the staff, they're just being mismanaged.

So they can hire more workers all they want, but if those workers are mishandled they're just wasting more time and resources but not really accomplishing any more than what they have been. What they really need is better leadership. And that ties in with what you said about focus.

Right now it seems only the mech making department has any sort of leadership and focus, and that's probably why MWO is still up and running. But they won't be able to carry MWO forever. Eventually all they'll be left with is a handful of diehards and MWO will collapse unless the other departments get their ***t together.

I suppose I'm sorta sick of hearing Russ say the phrase 'all hands on deck' for things.

'All hands on deck' is an emergency response, not a default mode of operation. If you never leave any folks any time to do any sort of future planning or new-features spitballing, then you'll never get anywhere. I don't know if a systems engineer is what they need to do more new-features testing and planning, but we're getting fairly regular map fixes/updates since they hired another map guy.

It'd be great if they could do that but for core game systems instead of just maps. Hire a guy whose exclusive job is to do things like work on iterating variations on Energy Draw, or test a TT-esque heat penalty scale, or fiddle with ways of getting knockdown back into the game, or other stuff like that. He doesn't ever work on fixing existing features unless existing features are on fire and players' computers are exploding or something. He's the Wild Experiments guy, who puts time into working on things the playerbase wants within the next year, instead of the next three months.

Well, the reasonable part of the playerbase. Not the ones who figure Piranha can initiate and then fully wrap up an engine change and get back to features development by February, including MechCon shenanery and also current systems development. Those people are dreaming - Blizzard couldn't pull an engine change in that timeframe even with their nigh-infinite manpower and budget.

Those guys aside...that's what I meant by fixing their issues with money. Yeah, they'd need to change their management schemes just a li'l bit there for this to work, instead of the guy being caught up in the first "ALL HANDS ON DECK" flag that goes up and then getting stuck in that same mode with the rest of the company, but I really do feel like Piranha can't see any further than their latest 'Mech pack preorders anymore.

They need to change that. If they can't see any worthwhile future for this game, how can we?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Blackice001, on 30 October 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

So the Battletech online kick starter is over with, They raised over 2.5 mill for the game development scheduled to be released in about 2 years.

Just FYI, it's just Battletech, not Battletech Online. I mention this only because I want to point out that it is primarily a single player game with 1vs1 multiplayer (lance vs lance). Sure you can play online, but again, it is for 1v1 only and isn't the game's primary focus. Matter of fact, the multiplayer portion was the last stretch goal (just to give some context). I just don't want people thinking it is a game as multiplayer focused as MWO but a strategy game instead.

That said, HBS is not PGI. Like everyone has pointed out, PGI has burned it's good will with most people. This isn't saying that a kickstarter would be a complete failure, but I feel that they have hurt the player base so badly that it wouldn't meet it's goals.

Overall I think I am done with the whole F2P model and the Mechwarrior franchise (or anything F2P Battletech). Just give us a MechWarrior reboot with a standard business model. Heck, if they absolutely have to, add additional paid content that is for looks only (although I hate that crap). It would be better than no reboot or MW5. If that can't be possible (too little public interest), then MWO is good enough.

I don't need a MWO version 2, that is for sure.

[JediPanther]

Given the lack of progress in development from pgi and all their lack of communication no one here would give pgi a penny for this or any other game. Have you not read the threads about how they shafted the mwo wc teams' out of their unit decals or about their new and improved mini map they had to hot fix that no one wanted?

[Positive Mental Attitude]

id be down if the artist started their own kickstarter looking for cryengine devs to come help add actual content to mwo.

[Wintersdark]

Hunka Junk, on 31 October 2016 - 06:11 AM, said:

Um...

While I get the glib ( if useless) response, and I'm quite aware that Russ is the easy target because "well he should have replaced Those Responsible"(which is indeed true) I'm of the mindset that personal responsibility is important. We shouldn't give a pass to those actually responsible for a deed because their boss is available as a target.

Because this is a creative process, and the guy doing the actual design is important in that.

Edited by Wintersdark, 31 October 2016 - 10:32 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Wintersdark, on 31 October 2016 - 05:48 AM, said:

You know, I disagree somewhat.

I don't think Russ is the problem, other than in the "The guy at the top is always responsible" sense. That is, I feel it's not a lack of vision so much as a lack of will to take a hard look at whoever has been responsible for the design of... Well, everything.

Energy Draw. Faction Warfare. Infowar. All these failures, we've basically got the same game that opened for Open Beta in 2012 with a healthy dose of bug fixes and UI/side feature polish, but nothing substantial in terms of gameplay. FW exists but it's terrible, and that's not even in comparing it to what was originally pitched.

Just to note and tie in with what Wintersdark noted, this is what was promised in 2013. Go to around the 18 minute mark.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 31 October 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Bombast, on 30 October 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

When you say it like that, all I can think of is the Star Trek Founders.

Specifically, the scene where Garak asks if there were any Cardassians captured when they attacked what they thought was the Founder's home world, and the Changeling answers 'No, they're all dead. You're dead. All Cardassians are dead.' Only now it's PGI asking for more money, and we respond 'No, your good will is dead. Our wallets are closed. They'll always be closed.'

Oh how I wanted to read that as Kardashians instead of Cardassians

[Stonekeg]

Flitzomat, on 31 October 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

From all the people I tried to persuade to play MWO I never heard it is a bad game. The contrary was the case. They just don´t find Mechs to be of any interest.
This game could be all you whished for and players population would be only slightly higher at best.

Get over it, we are like Gremlins living in a dark niche of the Gaming World... But I like it here

I can't like this enough. MWO, problems aside, isn't the issue when it comes to growing the player base. The issue is that we happen to love an IP that with a fairly low ceiling for market saturation.

In addition to that, finding your groove for realistic project scopes under such circumstances isn't easy, either. Which is my guess as to why we see so many efforts to improve MWO that feel "half done"

[Wintersdark]

Tarl Cabot, on 31 October 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Just to note and tie in with what Wintersdark noted, this is what was promised in 2013. Go to around the 18 minute mark.

Yup, I very clearly remember that. It's why I have such a hard time getting into FW at all. It's not just that things ended up different, even after all this time there's nothing. Nothing.

We still have unit coffers, which serve no purpose, no form of logistics, no contracts/bounties...

FW is just QP with limited game mode options and no matchmaker. While there CAN be rewards to conquering worlds, those are limited to the largest unit involved only and even then they're dependent on the largess of the unit leader.

But I digress. The problems and disappointments of FW are legion and known to all. It's sure a huge, huge distance from what was described in the Launch Party video.

And that's kind of the thing. I get that what was described at the start of the Kickstarter Founders Program and what we ended up with are wholly different, but at least there they had not even a beta as foundation but rather nothing at all... But that video, that was from the Launch Party. That's from the day MWO came officially out of beta. That should have been more than a wishlisting of hopes and dreams, it should have been a concrete, vetted design that was already being built.

Ah, well. This is why, while I'd love to be at MechCon, I decided to buy a 3D printer instead of plane tickets. I'm sure they'll announce cool stuff, but will it be stuff like InfoWar, Faction Warfare, Energy Draw? Stuff that'll be just thrown together and either be terribly disappointing or utter failures that are wholly scrapped?

I'm basically at the point of assuming any claim of game changes or enhancements will simply fail. Now, fortunately,i like the MWO we have, so that's not the end of the world, and minor polish features discussed will probably come to pass (see: faction chat, VoIP, etc)... But that also heavily reduces any enthusiasm to be there for announcements.

[Blackice001]

The video linked by [color=#B27204]Tarl Cabot[/color] made me sad. I didn't know all the history, And now that I know more, I feel bad for the community. Everything I had hoped this game could be was already promised and failed to be delivered. Thanks for educating me on MWO's history.