43 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

Deathlike, on 01 November 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Timberwolf-S was added AFTER MW4's existence (including Mercs). The lore reference in MW4 was accurate at the time (it didn't have JJ access).

Falcon Guard was released 9 years prior to MW4, so jump capable Mad Cats existed first.

[Deathlike]

Bombast, on 01 November 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

Falcon Guard was released 9 years prior to MW4, so jump capable Mad Cats existed first.

We sure there was no retcon involved?

[Leone]

Yes.

~Leone.

[Bombast]

Deathlike, on 01 November 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

We sure there was no retcon involved?

What, the video game retconing the book?

Mechwarrior/Battletech follow standard tabletop canon rules - The Video Games are only canon if they don't contradict any other source, and even if they don't they still often aren't canon. So the book takes precedent.

If you're asking if the book was changed after the game, I doubt it. However, I have the Jade Phoenix Omnibus, published 3 years after MW4, so... if you want to be absolutely sure, I guess you have to find an original print. Though it's a fairly important part of the book. Not really sure how the original could have gone without jump jets.

Edited by Bombast, 01 November 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[Zacharias McLeod]

Bombast, on 01 November 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

What, the video game retconing the book?

Mechwarrior/Battletech follow standard tabletop canon rules - The Video Games are only canon if they don't contradict any other source, and even if they don't they still often aren't canon. So the book takes precedent.

If you're asking if the book was changed after the game, I doubt it. However, I have the Jade Phoenix Omnibus, published 3 years after MW4, so... if you want to be absolutely sure, I guess you have to find an original print. Though it's a fairly important part of the book. Not really sure how the original could have gone without jump jets.

I have the old original print of the Jade Phoenix Omnibus and Aidan Pryde already used his JJ Timber Wolf.

So the JJ Timber Wolf is very, very old and not new.


BTW MW4 was never ever full canon.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 01 November 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[SpiralFace]

Falcon guard always had Aiden in a JJ timberwolf (he made a point to equip them because he was traditionally a Summoner Pilot.)

Additionally, City Tech 2nd ed introduced the S configs of all the mechs in the box (Kit Fox, Nova, Timberwolf, Direwolf.) Circa 1994.

MW4 did not invent jumping timberwolves. While rare, they have been around since almost the beginning, although only a very few select models use them.

[Bombast]

Zacharias McLeod, on 01 November 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

BTW MW4 was never ever full canon.

Yah, I know. The point I was trying to make (Poorly) is that in TT games, whether it be Warhammer 40K or Battletech, video games are the lowest level of canon possible, if they're canon at all.

As far as Mechwarrior canon goes, I believe Mechwarrior 3 is the only one that's kind of, sort of canon, and even that's only in the broadest possible sense. The actual specifics of the game aren't canon, just the synopsis.

[Angel of Annihilation]

About the closest Lore based reference would be the Timberwolf that Adian Pryde piloted when he made his last stand protecting his trueborn daughter on Tukayyid. He traditionally piloted a Summoner but for some reason or another his mech was downlined so he reconfigured a Timberwolf to be similar to his Summoners by mounting JJs on the chassis and modifying his omnipod configuration. This is the only known instance of a Timberwolf mounting JJs that I am aware of.

Another thing to keep in mind is that per LORE, Clan Omnimechs for the most part shouldn't have any restrictions other than engine, armor and structure. They were all designed to mount JJs, weapons and most other equipment at well. For example, technically we should be able to mount JJs on a Stormcrow or Hellbringer and/or remove them from any other Omnimech at will.

[Zacharias McLeod]

Viktor Drake, on 01 November 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

For example, technically we should be able to mount JJs on a Stormcrow or Hellbringer and/or remove them from any other Omnimech at will.

Not true.

OmniMechs have pod or hardwired JJ.

Depends on the Mech.

So the OmniMechs with fixed JJ here in MWO had them in Lore too.

Timber Wolf has the pod JJ (only S has them but they are pods so you could use them at other configs too) but Summoner has fixed.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 01 November 2016 - 01:14 PM.

[Tordin]

Quote

Another thing to keep in mind is that per LORE, Clan Omnimechs for the most part shouldn't have any restrictions other than engine, armor and structure. They were all designed to mount JJs, weapons and most other equipment at well. For example, technically we should be able to mount JJs on a Stormcrow or Hellbringer and/or remove them from any other Omnimech at will.

Aha! I feel a bit enlightened, jay! That info bit was a relief, really.
So there is a canon/ lore reason to be able to remove for example JJ from omnimehcs, like the Summoner/ Thor... So the only die-hard reason PGI wont let us is due to gameplay balance?
If so, we need to continue the campaign for being able to move locked JJ (and cbaps like for the Mist Lynx) on omnis. Could balance it out by reducing specific chassis quirks or remove quirks from all clan mechs.

Still are the optional removal of the Adders flamer, canon/ lore friendly?

Edited by Tordin, 01 November 2016 - 01:42 PM.

[SMDMadCow]

Deathlike, on 01 November 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Timberwolf-S was added AFTER MW4's existence (including Mercs). The lore reference in MW4 was accurate at the time (it didn't have JJ access).

Citytech 2nd ed was published in 1994.
MW4 came out in 2000.
TBR-S had been around for 6 years prior to the video game.

[Bombast]

Tordin, on 01 November 2016 - 01:40 PM, said:

Still are the optional removal of the Adders flamer, canon/ lore friendly?

Sarna.net said:

The Adder has a Flamer in a fixed mount which cannot be removed from the 'Mech.

Edited by Bombast, 01 November 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[Red Shrike]

I love these kinds of threads discussing the lore and/or TT, but then I boot up MWO and am reminded that none of it can be found in MWO.

Edited by Red Shrike, 01 November 2016 - 03:54 PM.

[CycKath]

Red Shrike, on 01 November 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

I love these kinds of threads discussing the lore and/or TT, but then I boot up MWO and am reminded that none of it can be found in MWO.

which is why I say what I say at the start of every match, injecting my only bit of lore with every match.

As for in-universe intro date - Master Unit List (which is canon unlike Sarna) has a 3050 intro date for Mad Cat S - http://masterunitlis...t-timber-wolf-s

[Deathlike]

SMDMadCow, on 01 November 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Citytech 2nd ed was published in 1994.
MW4 came out in 2000.
TBR-S had been around for 6 years prior to the video game.

Meh.

Whatever, I'm not going to fight lore history (the part where other people give more of a damn than me)

[SMDMadCow]

Deathlike, on 01 November 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

Meh.

Whatever, I'm not going to fight lore history (the part where other people give more of a damn than me)

Ok, but you seemed to give a pretty good damn when you thought you were right.

[Deathlike]

SMDMadCow, on 01 November 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Ok, but you seemed to give a pretty good damn when you thought you were right.

Lore is not my forte.

This I have no problem admitting to.

[razenWing]

Frankly, I created this thread to see if there are loopholes in PGI's logic to include a JJ-capable Madcat.

Assuming I succeeded, and the universe works like MW4 where the first JJ-capable Madcat thing won't appear until MKII.

Will TBR still be considered the strongest heavy in the game? (and would this also creates a more massive hype for MKII? Just saying, by including the S, that sounds to me like a lot of cha-ching going out the window)

[Karl Streiger]

Viktor Drake, on 01 November 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

About the closest Lore based reference would be the Timberwolf that Adian Pryde piloted when he made his last stand protecting his trueborn daughter on Tukayyid. He traditionally piloted a Summoner but for some reason or another his mech was downlined so he reconfigured a Timberwolf to be similar to his Summoners by mounting JJs on the chassis and modifying his omnipod configuration. This is the only known instance of a Timberwolf mounting JJs that I am aware of.

Another thing to keep in mind is that per LORE, Clan Omnimechs for the most part shouldn't have any restrictions other than engine, armor and structure. They were all designed to mount JJs, weapons and most other equipment at well. For example, technically we should be able to mount JJs on a Stormcrow or Hellbringer and/or remove them from any other Omnimech at will.

with a sub capital small laser -

as said several times before - all the S variants were a direct answer to the urban fighting of the IS, and we all should know that a buch of determined infantry in a hardened building is a bane to every MechKilling Mech

OK it was necessary to change the rule set - so the S variant must have stat to exist when the rule that a single Gauss Rifle slug can vaporize 15 soldiers per platoon went into the bin

[Vellron2005]

I would just like to point out that the guy in the MW4 video game that ain't never seen a TBR with JJ's, could have simply been not accustomed to such a configuration?

If you're into mechs, don't mean you know of every configuration in existence.. Shucks, I've played this game for years and still don't know many mecs specs.. only the ones I've had the privilege of playing..