45 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

I've seen several disgruntled owners say that Phoenix Hawks are among the worst Mechs in the game.

However, when I'm duelling with them, they actually seem tankier than I'd expect for their size and tonnage. Ie. I seem to have to put a lot of fire on them before they finally die.

What's your view on them?

[The6thMessenger]

Kind of the same. Although with their small stature, at least to me, they kind of look like lights so they look weak. I guess that's what gives it it's tanky feel.

[SirNotlag]

Tanky? you got to be kidding me. I kills them so fast every time i see them. unless they are actually playing like a light and using their speed to conduct hit and runs or get behind me.

So no i think they feel about right for their weight class more durable than a light but still reliant on speed.

[Bombast]

While they do seem a bit tanky to me as well, considering weight, they don't seem to be able to bring enough fire power to make it worth while. All their (Relative) tankiness seems to grant them is a slower, more agonizing death.

[Aramuside]

I love them but tanky isn't a word I'd use. I find them very agile and good at avoiding damage but if I get hit with any single panel weapon it hurts badly as I can't spread it. I've learnt to HATE IS AC20 carriers like Centurions.

[Y E O N N E]

They are sort of like the Mist Lynx: they spread damage extremely well but you lose any and all offensive capability in the opening salvos because it's all mounted in the arms.

And that's really the real meat of the issue. There are many 'Mechs in this game that are durable from a "not actually dead yet" perspective. They are, however easy to mission kill, which is to say they are easy to make irrelevant to the match outcome. Stalkers, Phoenix Hawks, Mist Lynxes, Marauders, IS Hunchbacks...all easy to mission-kill because their eggs are sort of in one basket by compulsion rather than pilot decision.

[Trollfeed]

The feeling of phoenix hawk "tankiness" propably comes from its arms. They're so huge that they block all the damage coming from sides and they're usually fully armored unlike other IS mediums. Pity that all weapons are in the arms so that poor phoenix is usually instantly unarmed.

They really dropped the ball with this mech, think about if PXH-1B had energy mount for other shoulder. Instantly decent enough mech with large lasers or large pulses.

What makes me extra salty about p-hawk is that mech that was released before it was kodiak if I remember right. Lets make a clantech 100 ton assault battlemech with 4 high as you can get ballistic hardpoints but IS 45 tonner with good hardpoint placement would be too overpowered? Sometimes it just feels that they have no idea how their own game plays, or more likely all the time.

[Ultimax]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

They are sort of like the Mist Lynx: they spread damage extremely well but you lose any and all offensive capability in the opening salvos because it's all mounted in the arms.

And that's really the real meat of the issue. There are many 'Mechs in this game that are durable from a "not actually dead yet" perspective. They are, however easy to mission kill, which is to say they are easy to make irrelevant to the match outcome. Stalkers, Phoenix Hawks, Mist Lynxes, Marauders, IS Hunchbacks...all easy to mission-kill because their eggs are sort of in one basket by compulsion rather than pilot decision.

Yeah it rolls damage well.

It has mostly awful hardpoint options, in mostly bad locations. The arms get destroyed easy and hold most of the firepower on most of the variants.

If you want to really play like a light you end up sinking quite a lot of weight into engine, reducing your firepower.


It has a lot working against it.

[jss78]

They're tanky in the sense that the hitboxes are wonderful. I quite often go down to 20's health before dying, which isn't otherwise common for me with IS XL engines.

And yup, you're lucky to have any guns left at that point. (unless you run the 1K)

[MadHornet]

If you play the 1K with an XL355, your torso twisting game will twist you into the next universe.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Appogee, on 30 October 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

I've seen several disgruntled owners say that Phoenix Hawks are among the worst Mechs in the game. However, when I'm duelling with them, they actually seem tankier than I'd expect for their size and tonnage. Ie. I seem to have to put a lot of fire on them before they finally die. What's your view on them?

Honestly I don't get it. They are Tanky as hell in my hands. I run XLs in all mine and the amount of damage I can absorb and tank is truly astronomical. Also for whatever reason, I don't seem to have the same issue with losing its arms that most people seem to complain about but I think that is play style based. I am not sure why but many people seem to want to turn it into a big Firestarter and try to play it like a run and gun light mech which is kind of stupid in my opinion. Your just too big, still slower than a light and are taking fire from too many angles (hence losing your arms) to excel at that.

Instead reduce the engine to around a 270XL which if I am not mistaken still gets you a very good 104 kph, mount a few larger weapons and play it like a second line support mech using a hit and run playstyle.

My favorites are the two ECM variants. One I run with 2 x LL and 3 x ML and the other I run with 1 x ER PPC and 3 x ML. My Non-ECM, Non-JJ model runs a single ER PPC and 5 ML.

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

I am not sure why but many people seem to want to turn it into a big Firestarter and try to play it like a run and gun light mech which is kind of stupid in my opinion. Your just too big, still slower than a light and are taking fire from too many angles (hence losing your arms) to excel at that.

Instead reduce the engine to around a 270XL which if I am not mistaken still gets you a very good 104 kph, mount a few larger weapons and play it like a second line support mech using a hit and run playstyle.

My favorites are the two ECM variants. One I run with 2 x LL and 3 x ML and the other I run with 1 x ER PPC and 3 x ML. My Non-ECM, Non-JJ model runs a single ER PPC and 5 ML.

Probably because to do what you do is better executed on the Blackjack while playing fast and close is something only the PHX is capable of. It's a case of being unwilling to reconcile preconception with actual capability.

I have seen plenty of SPL PHX perform some magic, though. One forum member fashioning himself after a certain city in Michigan is quite good at it...

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Honestly I don't get it. They are Tanky as hell in my hands. I run XLs in all mine and the amount of damage I can absorb and tank is truly astronomical. Also for whatever reason, I don't seem to have the same issue with losing its arms that most people seem to complain about but I think that is play style based. I am not sure why but many people seem to want to turn it into a big Firestarter and try to play it like a run and gun light mech which is kind of stupid in my opinion. Your just too big, still slower than a light and are taking fire from too many angles (hence losing your arms) to excel at that.

Instead reduce the engine to around a 270XL which if I am not mistaken still gets you a very good 104 kph, mount a few larger weapons and play it like a second line support mech using a hit and run playstyle.

My favorites are the two ECM variants. One I run with 2 x LL and 3 x ML and the other I run with 1 x ER PPC and 3 x ML. My Non-ECM, Non-JJ model runs a single ER PPC and 5 ML.

I dunno about you, but I like shooting arms off mechs that are solely dependent on them.

It's great to be "tanky" except for the fact you have little to nothing to respond with when it matters most.

[TercieI]

Deathlike, on 30 October 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

I dunno about you, but I like shooting arms off mechs that are solely dependent on them.

It's great to be "tanky" except for the fact you have little to nothing to respond with when it matters most.

This. The mech is actually reasonably survivable but it loses its arms and all its guns with them super easily, so staying alive really doesn't much matter at that point.

[xX PUG Xx]

...... do you mean the Mincing Minx? Sorry Prancing Pansy?

One of my friends....ok team mates.....well he's an aquintance really, he swears by the PHX with ECM and two PPC's. To his credit he regularly posts 700+ damage games and with multiple kills, I believe his terminology was to play it with the thought "chase me!" (Said in the campest voice you can manage) and never stay in the one place.

As for it bring tanky? Yeah it does seem t9 be able to soak up a decent amount of damage IF you don't stand still and torso twist like it's 70's night down the local YMCA.

(Cue Devlin......)

[AnTi90d]

Phoenix Hawks remind me of butterflies.

They're pretty to look at..

..and if you peel off their wings/arms, they just walk around and don't do anything.

[FLG 01]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

Instead reduce the engine to around a 270XL which if I am not mistaken still gets you a very good 104 kph, mount a few larger weapons and play it like a second line support mech using a hit and run playstyle.

It has been pointed out already that other Mechs are better at this kind of playstyle. Imho, the prime advantage of the PXH is mobility, either coupled with ECM or more mobility, i.e. MASC. (I have not tried out the PXH-1K - enemy of the Commonwealth).

Since a higher engine rating not only boosts your speed but also your overall agility, rolling damage is easier too. And this is what makes the PXH feel relatively durable in a fight, although it objectively is not.
In my experience (some 1000 matches since the PXH is my preferred ride) losing an arm happens more frequently than on other Mechs but I also have to say that my Mech is usually badly shot up anyway. It is relatively rare that I lose an arm while my armour elsewhere is yellow or orange.

PS: ever since the rescale the 35-tonners are easy to hit. The Firestarter is effectively dead and I found the super mobile Phoenix Hawk to be an excellent replacement.

[kuma8877]

xX PUG Xx, on 30 October 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

...... do you mean the Mincing Minx? Sorry Prancing Pansy?

One of my friends....ok team mates.....well he's an aquintance really, he swears by the PHX with ECM and two PPC's. To his credit he regularly posts 700+ damage games and with multiple kills, I believe his terminology was to play it with the thought "chase me!" (Said in the campest voice you can manage) and never stay in the one place.

As for it bring tanky? Yeah it does seem t9 be able to soak up a decent amount of damage IF you don't stand still and torso twist like it's 70's night down the local YMCA.

(Cue Devlin......)

I'd swear on the 2ppc build on the 1B also. Spear and shield that bird and keep it mobile and it can wreck house that way.

[Tibbnak]

Just take the arms off and then ignore it. The PHX will become a useless stick that can bump into people.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Probably because to do what you do is better executed on the Blackjack while playing fast and close is something only the PHX is capable of. It's a case of being unwilling to reconcile preconception with actual capability. I have seen plenty of SPL PHX perform some magic, though. One forum member fashioning himself after a certain city in Michigan is quite good at it...

I have BlackJacks and I disagree. BJs don't have ECM and don't have near the mobility of the PHX. BJs can been very good at this role but they do it differently. As is often the case, understanding something and explaining something are two very different things so I can't quite describe what I mean but I find there is a huge difference.

As far as using it as a run and gun light, I am not saying they can't be used that way or that some players can't be exceptional at it, I am just saying that I don't think that is the best use of a PHX.

FLG 01, on 30 October 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

It has been pointed out already that other Mechs are better at this kind of playstyle. Imho, the prime advantage of the PXH is mobility, either coupled with ECM or more mobility, i.e. MASC. (I have not tried out the PXH-1K - enemy of the Commonwealth). Since a higher engine rating not only boosts your speed but also your overall agility, rolling damage is easier too. And this is what makes the PXH feel relatively durable in a fight, although it objectively is not. In my experience (some 1000 matches since the PXH is my preferred ride) losing an arm happens more frequently than on other Mechs but I also have to say that my Mech is usually badly shot up anyway. It is relatively rare that I lose an arm while my armour elsewhere is yellow or orange. PS: ever since the rescale the 35-tonners are easy to hit. The Firestarter is effectively dead and I found the super mobile Phoenix Hawk to be an excellent replacement.

Again I disagree that other mechs are better at that role. There might be some that are equally as good but as you pointed out, the PHX has great mobility and agility. Now I know you meant it in terms of being able to mount a very large engine and take advantage of the speed and agility boost that grants but even with a smaller engine those agility quirks are still present and it moves better with those smaller engines than just about any other mech in its weight class using the same engine. Additionally those 6 JJs give it excellent jump mobility. Basically it doesn't need a big engine to be mobile and agile.

Anyway, I guess I shouldn't be so critical of builds that try turn the PHX into a light mech, I mean if they work, they work. However I don't see the appeal myself and still feel that even after the rescale, the Firestarter is better at being a Firestarter than the PHX is. I will grant you that the ability to mount ECM is a big advantage though so maybe a slightly slower, slightly larger Firestarter with ECM isn't so bad.