20 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I was wondering, what if Ghost-Heat varies by class? Like GH is achieved with only 6 ML with Lights, but 10 with assaults? And quirks/nega-quirks can be bestowed on some mechs? Like Direwolf can shoot 4 UAC10s no problem, but Kodiak undergoes GH with 3 and above.

Like Direwolf can fire 4 UAC10s at the same time, no problem, but the Kodiak will GH instead. King Crab can shoot 2 AC20s without triggering GH.

Can the game be balanced on that, or it's just another mess?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 November 2016 - 01:40 PM.

[N0ni]

Losing the pug draw is like having X amount of nega-quirk stacks already, having actual nega-quirks is in poor taste... punishing a good chassis just for being that.

Also, no. That would be another mess. Why should my 5 MPL Wolfhound be punished with ghost heat just because it's a light mech that can fit a 5th / 6th?

[The6thMessenger]

N0ni, on 02 November 2016 - 11:57 PM, said:

Losing the pug draw is like having X amount of nega-quirk stacks already, having actual nega-quirks is in poor taste... punishing a good chassis just for being that.

Also, no. That would be another mess. Why should my 5 MPL Wolfhound be punished with ghost heat just because it's a light mech that can fit a 5th / 6th?

That's just an example. Maybe the 6 MPL can be retained, but other mechs can go higher, others are restricted lower.

[N0ni]

Restrictions are what kills the fun in building mechs.

No more restrictions.

[627]

That is essentially what quirks do. Every quirk affecting a weapon is either changing DPS or DPH. Wasn't it the awesome which got exactly the PPC quirks so it could fire 3 PPCs for a heat price that would negate ghost heat? Or at least close to that?

So in the end we have it already. And yes, it is a mess and gets worse and worse with every "balance" patch.

[Wintersdark]

The6thMessenger, on 02 November 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

I was wondering, what if Ghost-Heat varies by class? Like GH is achieved with only 4 ML with Lights, but 8 with assaults? And quirks/nega-quirks can be bestowed on some mechs? Like Direwolf can shoot 4 UAC10s no problem, but Kodiak undergoes GH with 3 and above.

Like Direwolf can fire 4 UAC10s at the same time, no problem, but the Kodiak will GH instead.

Can the game be balanced on that, or it's just another mess?

It's a mess, and a terrible idea for which you should feel bad.

[Duke Nedo]

The6thMessenger, on 02 November 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

I was wondering, what if Ghost-Heat varies by class? Like GH is achieved with only 4 ML with Lights, but 8 with assaults? And quirks/nega-quirks can be bestowed on some mechs? Like Direwolf can shoot 4 UAC10s no problem, but Kodiak undergoes GH with 3 and above.

Like Direwolf can fire 4 UAC10s at the same time, no problem, but the Kodiak will GH instead.

Can the game be balanced on that, or it's just another mess?

Not needed for lights at all imo since they are already restricted by their weaker heat handling, and their low weight forces them to use low weight weapons == medium- to high heat weapons. (except the MLX cUAC boss build then)

One could consider a small buff for Assualts possibly (give that KDK-3's are balanced) in order to give them a tiny buff relative to Heavies (who sit in a very balanced spot in terms of speed/firepower/durability). If one would like to do that, it would be easy with a working ED-system in place, you'd just give assaults +5 ED-cap and that's it. If you wanted to do this with the current GH-system you'd need a separate set of tables for each class....

Edited by Duke Nedo, 03 November 2016 - 03:29 AM.

[dario03]

The6thMessenger, on 02 November 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

I was wondering, what if Ghost-Heat varies by class? Like GH is achieved with only 4 ML with Lights, but 8 with assaults?

Ummmmm....No....
Why would we nerf lights even more?

Quote

And quirks/nega-quirks can be bestowed on some mechs? Like Direwolf can shoot 4 UAC10s no problem, but Kodiak undergoes GH with 3 and above.

Like Direwolf can fire 4 UAC10s at the same time, no problem, but the Kodiak will GH instead.

Can the game be balanced on that, or it's just another mess?

I would say no to the exact example. But I would be ok with changing ghost heat on a per mech basis. Though some quirks some what do that already. Heat quirks, especially the ones for specific weapons kind of already do that.

[The6thMessenger]

Duke Nedo, on 03 November 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

Not needed for lights at all imo since they are already restricted by their weaker heat handling, and their low weight forces them to use low weight weapons == medium- to high heat weapons. (except the MLX cUAC boss build then)

dario03, on 03 November 2016 - 05:08 AM, said:

Ummmmm....No....
Why would we nerf lights even more?

Again, that's just an example, Lights need not to be restricted to 4 ML for GH, i just showed that for an idea of how the idea works. I wasn't suggesting to nerf lights, i was just elaborating how it works.

Lets put this differently, what if Direwolf (and the rest) has GH limit of 4 UAC10s, whereas only Kodiak has GH Limit of 2 UAC10s. What if King-Crab has GH limit of 2 for AC20, everyone else have just 1 GH for AC20, what if Awesome has GH limit of 3 PPC instead of 2.

etc. etc.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 November 2016 - 05:42 AM.

[Albino Boo]

PGI are trying to find ways of reducing TTK, buffing the alpha of an assault will do the opposite.

[Besh]

Albino Boo, on 03 November 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

PGI are trying to find ways of ̶r̶e̶d̶u̶c̶i̶n̶g̶ increasing TTK, buffing the alpha of an assault will do the opposite.

Fixed that for you .

No kidding .

Edited by Besh, 03 November 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Albino Boo, on 03 November 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

PGI are trying to find ways of reducing TTK, buffing the alpha of an assault will do the opposite.

That's just an example, is that really hard to get? Actual GH interaction can be different, but the concept is the same -- different mechs have different GH Limit. That's it, that's the idea.

[Wintersdark]

The6thMessenger, on 03 November 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

Lets put this differently, what if Direwolf (and the rest) has GH limit of 4 UAC10s, whereas only Kodiak has GH Limit of 2 UAC10s. What if King-Crab has GH limit of 2 for AC20, everyone else have just 1 GH for AC20, what if Awesome has GH limit of 3 PPC instead of 2.

etc. etc.

This is bad, because it's making an already complex and opaque system more complex. We've already got a per-chassis balancing system (quirks) which already doesn't work well. [Edit: Doesn't work well because it's poorly used, not because the system is flawed]

This idea would just add another knob to turn, when the existing ***** are sufficient yet already poorly used. [Edit: I can say knob, but not the plural version of the word? That's bizzare. Go forum censors!]

Imagine the chaos when new players are trying to figure out builds. Ghost heat is bad enough (and it's really, really bad), this just makes it more confusing.

The core of my objection, though, is that there's simply no need for this at all. It doesn't actually do anything useful - if you're looking for per-chassis balance tweaks, we've already got quirks.

Edited by Wintersdark, 03 November 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[Random Carnage]

Ghost anything is testament to poor game design in anything other than pacman.

[Willard Phule]

For what it's worth, ghost heat based on engine size is a good idea....but probably beyond PGI's ability.

If you read the novels, a lot of the heat buildup comes from energy draw on the fusion reactor. The bigger the reactor, the more power it generates. An assault with a 400XL can generate more energy than a light with a 250.

They should also adopt something similar to what tabletop had with it's heat scale. As you gain heat, your movement decreases as well as your accuracy. THAT much we already know is beyond PGI's ability. That's why we have "ghost heat."

[Tristan Winter]

N0ni, on 03 November 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

Restrictions are what kills the fun in building mechs.

No more restrictions.

I disagree 9000%.

Restrictions is what makes it fun. Every mech is a puzzle, basically. If mechs had no restrictions, they would just be different skins.

[Lyoto Machida]

Tristan Winter, on 04 November 2016 - 03:46 AM, said:

I disagree 9000%.

Restrictions is what makes it fun. Every mech is a puzzle, basically. If mechs had no restrictions, they would just be different skins.

Seriously...it's like if every woman around had surgical bolt-ons and used make-up contouring, fake lashes, hair extensions, etc all the time. It would just be a bunch of artificially made up women with different face and body structures but all in a meta style...no women would be going with the natural look any more (aka "stock mode").

Actually though...now that I think about it, maybe that isn't such a bad idea. Most women look pretty bland (to put it gently) with no makeup, etc...probably like this game with no mechlab after awhile.

[Tristan Winter]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Seriously...it's like if every woman around had surgical bolt-ons and used make-up contouring, fake lashes, hair extensions, etc all the time. It would just be a bunch of artificially made up women with different face and body structures but all in a meta style...no women would be going with the natural look any more (aka "stock mode").

Actually though...now that I think about it, maybe that isn't such a bad idea. Most women look pretty bland (to put it gently) with no makeup, etc...probably like this game with no mechlab after awhile.

Don't lie to me, Lyoto. Have you been smoking a lil bit of weed? Eating some space brownies?

[Lyoto Machida]

Tristan Winter, on 04 November 2016 - 10:04 AM, said:

Don't lie to me, Lyoto. Have you been smoking a lil bit of weed? Eating some space brownies?

I live in Los Angeles, so yes...just not in the last 8 hours or so.

Meta vs stock mode:

[Tristan Winter]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 November 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

I live in Los Angeles, so yes...just not in the last 8 hours or so.
Meta vs stock mode:

I actually prefer my girlfriend not to paint her face to look prettier. If I didn't have a beard, I wouldn't want to paint my face to make it look like I have a more impressive jawline or whatever. Make-up is one of the things I like the least about modern culture. (I know it's been going on for some time, btw). I find it weird that it's so common. Hair extensions, fake boobs, lip injections. Humans are weird as hell.

The trick is to find a game where the stock mode is so attractive that it doesn't need to wear make-up. And preferably a game that lets you do butt stuff.