46 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Soooo..... imagine if there was 1.) an actual energy draw system that taxed your electrical output for firing electrically-powered weapons (lasers, PPCs, Gauss) and limited how often/many of those you can shoot within a period of time, 2.) Made all missile launchers ripple-fire, and 3.) reticule bloom based on the recoil for firing kinetic energy weapons (AC, Gauss, PPCs).

Would there be any need for Ghost Heat or any kinds of heat taxes?

(Yes, Gauss is an electrically-powered rifle, and PPCs are bursts of high-velocity particles that are supposed to cause damage by imparting kinetic energy)


P.S. I do think a randomness element should be incorporated into the bloom diameter. So if you fire a bunch of kinetic energy weapons right after the other ( or all at once), they don't all hit the same pixel. This would curb pinpoint alphas of ballistic/PPC weapons.

Ripplefire missiles would mitigate the Fire All The Missiles problem of being instagibbed by boaters. Could also just enforce a 2x2x2 type of chain fire (thus firing 2 weapons every half second) for when many missiles are fired "at once"

And a proper energy draw would prevent 12SL alphas while still allowing 6 x 6's

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 November 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[N0ni]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

3.) reticule bloom based on the recoil for firing kinetic energy weapons (AC, Gauss, PPCs).

With just this you can eliminate ghost heat for PPCs and ACs, since there will be RNG involved with the bloom. That is if you continue firing while it's bloomed.

It gives you a choice to whether wait for pinpoint bloom or pray to RNGesus for a good firing pattern which takes out the need for an additional penalty system (ghost heat).

[FupDup]

N0ni, on 02 November 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

With just this you can eliminate ghost heat for PPCs and ACs, since there will be RNG involved with the bloom. That is if you continue firing while it's bloomed.

It gives you a choice to whether wait for pinpoint bloom or pray to RNGesus for a good firing pattern which takes out the need for an additional penalty system (ghost heat).

AFAIK bloom isn't based on randomness (or at least it shouldn't be).

Bloom just means that your targeting crosshair gets bigger, making it a bit harder to figure out where it's pointing and thus harder to aim.

[Juodas Varnas]

It'd be interesting to try out at least.

[Bud Crue]

Depends on the goal of the system. I mean energy draw as originally explained was about limiting alphas to 30 with heat penalties for going over 30. What it ended at in the PTS was heat penalties, more spread in SRMS, range tweeks, damage changes and other various mish-mash of weapons modifications...what all of that had to do with the original goal or if those changes were in service to that goal I have no idea, so I can't say that they were good or bad, but merely well. inexplicable.

I think in your proposal, just having a reticle bloom would do the trick for increasing TTK since it would be harder to target specific regions of a mech (just apply it to everything not just ballistics) but if the goal is the 30 point alpha schtick then I am not so sure and then I would need more detail as to your other mechanisms.

[N0ni]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

AFAIK bloom isn't based on randomness (or at least it shouldn't be).

Bloom just means that your targeting crosshair gets bigger, making it a bit harder to figure out where it's pointing and thus harder to aim.

Well if it isn't based on randomness, then what's the point of bloom? We'd be back to square one with nothing changed. Idk about you, but it wouldn't make it more difficult.

[FupDup]

N0ni, on 02 November 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Well if it isn't based on randomness, then what's the point of bloom? We'd be back to square one with nothing changed. Idk about you, but it wouldn't make it more difficult.

Have you played any games where there are a variety of different crosshairs available, like really giant ones that are bigger than the whole target or really small ones that are like thumbtack sized?

The really big reticule makes it harder to visually "at a glance" judge the spot you're aiming at, so you might end up aiming at a place you weren't intending to.


Mind you, randomness doesn't make anything more difficult either. It just makes you have to fire a larger quantity of shots with the hope of at least a few of them being blessed by the diceroll gods.

What you're describing sounds more like the mechanic that SRMs and LBX use.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Juodas Varnas, on 02 November 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

It'd be interesting to try out at least.

PTS is still up isn't it? Somebody tweet Russ to dump the current schema of changes and just put in a cruder reticle. We start there and add other aspects of Prosperity's proposals on an iterative basis as needed...oh wait. PGI doesn't do iterative balance changes. Never mind.

[Karl Streiger]

If it is dependent on the number of weapons sure - if it uses other system like damage - nope

Take for example the Viper B - any reason to run it with a single ERPPC rather the usual array of tiny lasers?

Just a reminder we are already missing 2 balancing facts from Tt and have reduced a third - a bloom effect might simulate one of them, but range brackets and their effect on damage is still a complete loss (compare 6 ER Small Laser vs a single ERPPC in TT when target is at range 6

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 November 2016 - 02:00 PM.

[N0ni]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

Have you played any games where there are a variety of different crosshairs available, like really giant ones that are bigger than the whole target or really small ones that are like thumbtack sized?

- APB:R (zero crosshair while sprinting, blooms while even walking, used to be customizable years ago until they took that out)
- Counter Strike (custom crosshair)
- Left 4 Dead 2 (Custom crosshair)
- More in my Steam library

It's not like MWO is my one and only game unlike some comp teams. I'm no stranger to crosshair bloom mechanics or crosshair sizes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

AFAIK bloom isn't based on randomness (or at least it shouldn't be).

It uses spread, at least games like L4D and TF2 includes spread with bloom.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

PTS is still up isn't it? Somebody tweet Russ to dump the current schema of changes and just put in a cruder reticle. We start there and add other aspects of Prosperity's proposals on an iterative basis as needed...oh wait. PGI doesn't do iterative balance changes. Never mind.

I do think a randomness element should be incorporated into the bloom diameter. So if you fire a bunch of kinetic energy weapons right after the other ( or all at once), they don't all hit the same pixel. This would curb pinpoint alphas of ballistic/PPC weapons.

Ripplefire missiles would mitigate the Fire All The Missiles problem of being instagibbed by boaters. Could also just enforce a 2x2x2 type of chain fire (thus firing 2 weapons every half second) for when many missiles are fired "at once"

And a proper energy draw would prevent 12SL alphas while still allowing 6 x 6's

Edited by Prosperity Park, 02 November 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

It uses spread, at least games like L4D and TF2 includes spread with bloom.

Yeah, which is different from the unedited OP which only mentioned bloom alone.

Also I'm pretty sure that hardly any weapons in TF2 have any bloom, the only one I can remember is the Ambassador revolver for The Spy.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Yeah, which is different from the unedited OP which only mentioned bloom alone.

Also I'm pretty sure that hardly any weapons in TF2 have any bloom, the only one I can remember is the Ambassador revolver for The Spy.

I'm thinking the kind of bloom that does cause fire-spread if you point at a static location, as that's the only way to make sure that shots do, in fact, hit more than 1 pixel. It also does mimic realistic recoil...

[FupDup]

Prosperity Park, on 02 November 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

I'm thinking the kind of bloom that does cause fire-spread if you point at a static location, as that's the only way to make sure that shots do, in fact, hit more than 1 pixel. It also does mimic realistic recoil...

Recoil doesn't make your shots spread out randomly. Recoil just kicks your aim, generally upwards.

Also note that recoil has no effect on an alpha strike, since recoil happens AFTER you already fired the shot. Recoil specifically targets DPS/suppression fire.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2016 - 01:47 PM, said:

PTS is still up isn't it? Somebody tweet Russ to dump the current schema of changes and just put in a cruder reticle. We start there and add other aspects of Prosperity's proposals on an iterative basis as needed...oh wait. PGI doesn't do iterative balance changes. Never mind.

AFAIK that is disabled now (can't patch anymore) with the Tourney client getting a 2nd update (mostly the frontend for whatever reason, probably for Mechcon). Ironically the PTS change occurred today...

Edited by Deathlike, 02 November 2016 - 02:34 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Yeah, which is different from the unedited OP which only mentioned bloom alone.

Also I'm pretty sure that hardly any weapons in TF2 have any bloom, the only one I can remember is the Ambassador revolver for The Spy.

Pretty sure all of the Spy's weapons have bloom, the Ambassador's recovery speed is just less than normal and it matters far more on that weapon because of the headshot factor. TF2 is sort of a hard case though since a bunch of weapons since they either are shotguns so it doesn't matter anyway or in the case of the Sniper's SMG, shoot fast enough that you aren't going to bother waiting for the recovery to go back down to pinpoint. Every first shot of a weapon will have no spread in TF2, including shotguns (one pellet always goes straight down the middle) after that they are subject to bloom, generally reaching max bloom after the first shot.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 November 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

OP! NO! We dont wanna change the meta up at all. We just wanna keep bitching about the status Quo! Go away, no one wants to play this kind of game where we have to aim and stuff!!!!!!

Let us lazer vawmet in peeez. taek your simulation stuff back to ArmA!!!!

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 November 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

Pretty sure all of the Spy's weapons have bloom, the Ambassador's recovery speed is just less than normal and it matters far more on that weapon because of the headshot factor. TF2 is sort of a hard case though since a bunch of weapons since they either are shotguns so it doesn't matter anyway or in the case of the Sniper's SMG, shoot fast enough that you aren't going to bother waiting for the recovery to go back down to pinpoint. Every first shot of a weapon will have no spread in TF2, including shotguns (one pellet always goes straight down the middle) after that they are subject to bloom, generally reaching max bloom after the first shot.

I really don't remember the other Spy revolvers having reticule bloom. I'll start up TF2 in a few minutes to verify.

EDIT: Wait, are we using the same definition of "bloom" here? The definition I'm using is purely about what happens to the size of your crosshair. Your shots actually spreading out is not bloom, it's just called spread.

EDIT2: Just played a few minutes, can confirm that the Sniper SMG and Spy normal revolver do not have bloom. Spread yes, but not bloom.

Edited by FupDup, 02 November 2016 - 03:03 PM.

[dwwolf]

FupDup, on 02 November 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

AFAIK bloom isn't based on randomness (or at least it shouldn't be).

Bloom just means that your targeting crosshair gets bigger, making it a bit harder to figure out where it's pointing and thus harder to aim.

Fallacy.

Any ballistic weapon fired has 2 effects which affects Point of Impact:
1) Recoil, which shifts your aimpoint, hopefully after the round fired has left the barrel.
2) Random variance of said fired round because there are many variables that affect where it hits.
Be it wind, barrel temperature, temperature of propellant, amount of propellant, weight of the round, minor variances in the projectiles shape etc etc.

Targetting computers will always try to account for all of them, but rule 1 = there will be variance.