54 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

So, I just had a thought, and expounded on it over the course of a refreshing shower. This is 20 minutes' worth of work, so bear with me here.

A lot of players lament the loss of heat management as a core mechanic of battletech, particularly in the interim period of 3055-3067, where a lot of the truly modern 'Mechs emerged, laden with double heat sinks, XL engines, and ER weaponry. Single heat sinks have gone the way of the dodo, and unfortunately, that might be an irreversible trend. This is true across all weight classes, although it most severely handicaps the value of Light combat 'mechs, since they gain the least from the technological improvement.

So, a section of Sword and Dragon has a great little bit of technology called the "Prototype Double Heat Sink." This dandy piece of equipment acts as a double heat sink, but can't be mounted inside the engine of the 'mech. I was pondering if it was possible to sneak in that kind of equipment into SSW or Heavy Metal, when I wondered, "Why don't all double heat sinks work like that?"

Think about it. The huge drawback of DHS is bulk. The main problem with heat neutral 'mechs are usually 'mechs that have a relatively large engine, or at least a large number of in-engine heat sinks as compared to their armament. The "Free ten" are the biggest offenders, instantly giving a DHS equipped Battlemech twice the cooling power just for packing a fusion engine. If you took away this free bonus heat dissipation, suddenly 'Mechs would be forced to pick between internal space and heat management. The higher heat load of Clan weaponry would suddenly necessitate the more compact DHS, and designs would be more carefully built around bracket fired weapons, and suddenly those autocannons, with their heat/damage ratios aren't looking so bad, even as secondary weapons.

For those designs that truly run hot, or if you want to work out a compromise, you could introduce a new engine "Add-on" called Supercooling. For any category of engine, this would add an extra engine crit to the side torsos, and allow any in-engine heat sinks besides the Free Ten to act as double heat sinks. This would take away some of the zombie capabilities of Standard Fusion Engine energy boats, and would make Clan XL Supercooled engines suffer total failure from side torso shredding. However, I'm afraid it might somewhat injure the viability of the Light Fusion Engine.

I am curious what the community thinks of this idea, as a hypothetical. I know that Battletech has a (sometimes unfortunate) policy of "no stat retcons," so this would probably never be truly implemented, but I wonder what those veteran players might think of how this mechanic could pan out, and how it might have changed the face of Battletech.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

are we talking the 'Double strength' heatsink that was rolled out
during the 3rd-4th succession war?


Double-Strength Heat Sinks

Relying on corrosive liquid metal coolants instead of advanced radiators for efficiency, Double-Strength Heat Sinks were developed by the Federated Suns near the end of the Third Succession War at the Friden Aerospace Park research installation on Hoff. Unlike regular double heat sinks, they could be combined with standard heat sinks at leisure and were actually used as refit kits, replacing individual regular heat sinks. In this, they were plainly superior to regular double heat sinks, sharing none of their drawbacks.^[6] (It remains unclear whether or not they could be mounted in the engine.) However, they were too brittle and hard to maintain for more than a few years' worth of function.[/color]

When the Draconis Combine invaded Hoff in 3022, some 'Mechs among the defenders were equipped with functional prototypes of this type but they are believed to have been destroyed in the fighting. Neither the Federated Suns nor the Draconis Combine ever used these exact same Double-Strength Heat Sinks again after the battles on Hoff.[/color]


I prefer them to be experimental as such; but I feel that IS players should be more aware of them. They are incredibly flexible as heat solutions, being able to replace normal Heat Sinks on a singular level.
AKA
[Left Torso]
XL Engine
XL Engine
XL Engine
Heat Sink
Heat Sink
Double Strength HS
Double Strength HS
Double Strength HS]
I believe that's how they go...

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 12 December 2011 - 07:16 AM.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 07:15 AM, said:

Neither the Federated Suns nor the Draconis Combine ever used these exact same Double-Strength Heat Sinks again after the battles on Hoff.

...what? Why?

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

This is true across all weight classes

Actually, Super-Heavies might actually make the jump towards compact heatsinks.

Quote

"Why don't all double heat sinks work like that?"

'cuz they're exinct around the time of the clan invasion.
The prototype DHS you're refering to was a rather faulty version - being both brittle and hard to maintain for more than a few years (3022 version DHS). While the ones that the FedSuns deployed in 3039 only had the latter downside. Either way, they'ain't good from a logistical PoV. Especially compared to some vintage SL-era machines still sporting DHS, which functioned through the entire succession wars (if they were lucky enough) - which is some 150 years after the last factory producing SL-era DHS was ruined.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 12 December 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

Actually, Super-Heavies might actually make the jump towards compact heatsinks.

'cuz they're exinct around the time of the clan invasion.
The prototype DHS you're refering to was a rather faulty version - being both brittle and hard to maintain for more than a few years (3022 version DHS). While the ones that the FedSuns deployed in 3039 only had the latter downside. Either way, they'ain't good from a logistical PoV. Especially compared to some vintage SL-era machines still sporting DHS, which functioned through the entire succession wars (if they were lucky enough) - which is some 150 years after the last factory producing SL-era DHS was ruined.

yeah but whos to say they won't show up in MW:O as a costlier but effective Heat Sink solution?
<wink> <wink>
personally I would pay a premium (of in-game creds mind you) for these better HS

[Alizabeth Aijou]

I play House Kurita, the only place I'll see DHS is on the Grand Dragon (DRG-5K/DRG-C only), Maulder (MAL-1R), and ComStar gifts from the 3030s. And in a number of cases I might as well change to an XL engine and fill extra tonnage with SHS.

Take the HTM-27U Hatamoto-Hi as an example.
Changing the SFE to XLE frees up 11 tons, which can be used to fit another 11 SHS to the 'Mech, which now has no empty crits unless I start removing arm actuators. Result is a heat dissipation of 30, which is more than enough to walk/run and fire both PPCs. I could even fire two of the MPLs and remain heat-neutral. Or I could upgrade the PPCs to ER models and have only minimal overheat when firing on the move.

Also, I faintly remember reading about those early prototypes exploding when hit.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Yah, getting rid of the free ten (20) heak sinks would go a long way to making double heat sinks a real choice instead of a no-brainer. 20 dissipation as a baseline renders engine crits and infernos not that big a deal and makes energy weapons much more attractive.

[GreyGriffin]

TheRulesLawyer, on 12 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

Yah, getting rid of the free ten (20) heak sinks would go a long way to making double heat sinks a real choice instead of a no-brainer. 20 dissipation as a baseline renders engine crits and infernos not that big a deal and makes energy weapons much more attractive.

This is really what I was getting at. I'm aware of the development of the technology, the nature of P-DHS in-universe, etc. I am proposing an interesting gameplay change.

This is where one of Battletech's strengths becomes one of its weaknesses... its inability to retcon or rebalance on a large scale really handicaps its ability to evolve its gameplay.

[Grotonomus]

GreyGriffin, on 12 December 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

This is really what I was getting at. I'm aware of the development of the technology, the nature of P-DHS in-universe, etc. I am proposing an interesting gameplay change.

This is where one of Battletech's strengths becomes one of its weaknesses... its inability to retcon or rebalance on a large scale really handicaps its ability to evolve its gameplay.

This is a very interesting game mechanic. I'm very impressed with this idea, I'm going to have a serious conversation w/ my tabletop crew about this. We've all never really been happy w/ the free 20. This may be the solution that can introduce a new and more varied build strategy. I'm so sick and tired of Clan Mechs that are just energy weapon boats. This was one of the reasons I stuck to the succession wars in Table Top after I played the clan tech games.

[GreyGriffin]

Arden Sortek, on 12 December 2011 - 05:01 PM, said:

This is a very interesting game mechanic. I'm very impressed with this idea, I'm going to have a serious conversation w/ my tabletop crew about this. We've all never really been happy w/ the free 20. This may be the solution that can introduce a new and more varied build strategy. I'm so sick and tired of Clan Mechs that are just energy weapon boats. This was one of the reasons I stuck to the succession wars in Table Top after I played the clan tech games.

Please, tell me how it goes! I know that it will break the everliving crap out of a handful of designs, especially 3050 era clan omnis, but after a bit of teething I am sure some great alternate builds will pop up.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

TheRulesLawyer, on 12 December 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

Yah, getting rid of the free ten (20) heak sinks would go a long way to making double heat sinks a real choice instead of a no-brainer. 20 dissipation as a baseline renders engine crits and infernos not that big a deal and makes energy weapons much more attractive.

Remember, we're playing 3048/3049 here.
Which means that DHS will only be the default on premium 'mechs in A and A+ regiments such as the Genyosha.

Take the DCMS as an example (already done so above), by 3049, they've only got two designs which have DHS by default, the DRG-5K Grand Dragon, and the MAL-1R Mauler. Their main forces are still using SHS, including one the Hatamoto-series, which only gets a factory model with DHS as default in 3070.
The Panther? 3064. Jenner? 3068.

So in case of us, the players, we'll most likely be stuck with SHS until we get a nice rank, and even then it might only be due to access to newer models, rather than refits.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

uh oh - dont say clantech and change too closely
to each other you'll get slapped with a 'slippery slope'
argument from some purist or clanner (usually one in
the same)

Overall, I love this idea; ***** the 'free 20'

[ice trey]

While I often hear that complaint about post 3050 designs in Battletech, I would vouch to say that it's a crock. Heat management is still very much in place with a good portion of 'mechs in Battletech, whether clan, Inner Sphere, Periphery, or Wobbie.

The thing is, Heat management has become much more dramatic. You're not nickel-and-dime'ing yourself with heat like in 3025; rather, you make no heat whatsoever or find yourself risking shutdown in a single turn.

Now, while many designs (Especially lighter-end designs) almost never have to contend with heat anymore, that's hardly to say that heat is no concern. It tends to focus more on bracketing, rather than pushing the curve, but it's still very much there. Anyone who says heat management is gone from the game clearly has never tried using TSM 'mechs that don't sport a large array of low-heat weapons. When you have to shut down heat-sinks and manage your movement just to get that extra 1MP bonus and double-damage melee, you start to see just how tough heat management still manages to be in the post-invasion period.

I'll grant that it's rare to see anyone push that heat curve after the 3050s in order to get that extra blam, but that's less to do with double heat sinks, and more to do with increased weapon heat. The difference between a 10 heat PPC and 15 heat ERPPC can be dramatic, and when even going one ER Medium Laser extra means moving 1mp slower the following turn, players do tend to play things more cautiously.

To be honest, I think that the trend into DHS is better. Too many times I've played 3025 games and suffered double engine hits on a 10shs unit, meaning that any action taken creates heat, and the only way to dissipate it is to shut down (Often, two engine hits mean that entering a water hex to cool off is out of the question, due to flood risks). It's really disappointing to see units become rendered useless in that way.

[ice trey]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 13 December 2011 - 06:02 AM, said:

Remember, we're playing 3048/3049 here.
Which means that DHS will only be the default on premium 'mechs in A and A+ regiments such as the Genyosha.

Take the DCMS as an example (already done so above), by 3049, they've only got two designs which have DHS by default, the DRG-5K Grand Dragon, and the MAL-1R Mauler. Their main forces are still using SHS, including one the Hatamoto-series, which only gets a factory model with DHS as default in 3070.
The Panther? 3064. Jenner? 3068.

So in case of us, the players, we'll most likely be stuck with SHS until we get a nice rank, and even then it might only be due to access to newer models, rather than refits.

I play DCMS, so I think I should mention that the Dracs are one of the last factions to get the DHS production up and running. Most of their "Upgrades" in 3050 were horribly handicapped, forcing players to wait until 3055 to really get any designs that could effectively use the new ERPPCs they were churning out.

[TheRulesLawyer]

ice trey, on 13 December 2011 - 07:16 AM, said:

While I often hear that complaint about post 3050 designs in Battletech, I would vouch to say that it's a crock. Heat management is still very much in place with a good portion of 'mechs in Battletech, whether clan, Inner Sphere, Periphery, or Wobbie.

The thing is, Heat management has become much more dramatic. You're not nickel-and-dime'ing yourself with heat like in 3025; rather, you make no heat whatsoever or find yourself risking shutdown in a single turn.

Only if you run over gunned energy heavy designs. It makes low heat weapons like autocannons a much worse choice when every mech can easily dissipate the heat from multiple large energy weapons without thinking about it. I would never say there is no heat management in post 3050 battletech, but it really is much simpler and changed the game balance dramatically.

[Xhaleon]

Taking away the free heat sinks in the engine entirely is too punishing, especially for speedster mechs that need all the weight-saving technologies to have something approaching a "weapon system". If you did not mean that exactly, then the point is dropped, however...

I would keep the engine sinks rule, but calculate them by halving the number allowed inside the engine when using double sinks. Do the normal calculations against engine rating, halve the number, then round down the result to get the number of DHS that is inside the engine. Big engines will still keep them in.

If you feel particularly evil, go ahead and cut the number in three. Slower mechs will suffer a lot, but it does increase the value of ballistic weapons. This will make Clan tech even more delicious to the average new player, though. And it will make some canon designs completely bunk.

I am stealing my own idea for my little vaporware BT-2.0 project.

----------

Scratch the part about it being bad for slower mechs. Halving the number would actually make big engines provide diminishing returns, although by this point two extra 3-crit sinks gone would be quite helpful.

Edited by Xhaleon, 14 December 2011 - 01:17 AM.

[GreyGriffin]

Xhaleon, on 13 December 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

Taking away the free heat sinks in the engine entirely is too punishing, especially for speedster mechs that need all the weight-saving technologies to have something approaching a "weapon system". If you did not mean that exactly, then the point is dropped, however...

You would still get Heat Sinks in-engine, they just wouldn't be doubles. If you need In-Engine double heat sinks, you can splurge on the crits and C-Bills for Supercooling, but the base 10 heat sinks that come with your fusion engine never count as doubles, only singles.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

man that makes so much sense! it actually reduces the mass-shifting handwavium
that goes on with mech making

[Dihm]

I rather like the proposal, would be interested to see how it plays.

[TheRulesLawyer]

The more I think about this, the more I like it.
You basically could only mount two bulky techs and have any space left over

DHS
FF armor
ES structure

Pick 2