31 replies to this topic

[vandalhooch]

Internal structure is most helpful to torsos because it pads damage absorption for both front and back shots. Armor is more useful for arms/legs because there is no split between front and back.

[FupDup]

Tarogato, on 12 November 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Well, another one of the problems with them, is that "regular" weapons crit-seek just fine already. If you buffed the crit potential of crit-oriented guns, then you are contributing to a faster TTK. So it would be better to at the same time nerf the crit-seeking abilities of non-crit-oriented guns, like PPCs, lasers, and non-LB ballistics.

On that note I do wish that normal guns rarely got critical hits.

That isn't the only reason that "crit seekers" are mediocre, though. They're not just mediocre by comparison, they're just mediocre all by themselves.

For TTK, the only way that it would be faster across the board is if those crit-seekers got buffed to be stronger than the most powerful non-crit weapons. I really think that's unlikely. The TTK for those specific guns would be faster, but for the game as a whole it would be about the same unless the buff was turboextreme.

[mogs01gt]

vandalhooch, on 13 November 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Internal structure is most helpful to torsos because it pads damage absorption for both front and back shots. Armor is more useful for arms/legs because there is no split between front and back.

who cares about staying alive longer when you no weapons.

[Spheroid]

The structure buff would be of greater use in the event of an ammo explosion in the leg since damage transfers directly to the internal structure of the torso.

[Deathlike]

Spheroid, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 AM, said:

The structure buff would be of greater use in the event of an ammo explosion in the leg since damage transfers directly to the internal structure of the torso.

The problem however is that ammo explosions by their very own nature are rare.


You'd almost be better off arguing leg structure bonuses are great for MASC.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

On that note I do wish that normal guns rarely got critical hits.

That isn't the only reason that "crit seekers" are mediocre, though. They're not just mediocre by comparison, they're just mediocre all by themselves.

For TTK, the only way that it would be faster across the board is if those crit-seekers got buffed to be stronger than the most powerful non-crit weapons. I really think that's unlikely. The TTK for those specific guns would be faster, but for the game as a whole it would be about the same unless the buff was turboextreme.

A below-1 CritDamMult would achieve this with a wonderful bandaid...

Perhaps make the Gauss NOT the best Crit Weapon in the game?

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 13 November 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

A below-1 CritDamMult would achieve this with a wonderful bandaid...

Perhaps make the Gauss NOT the best Crit Weapon in the game?

Maybe someday.

We may have to check back next year... it won't occur to our balance overlord in 60 to 90 days.

[vandalhooch]

mogs01gt, on 13 November 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

who cares about staying alive longer when you no weapons.

This makes no sense. Increased torso structure reduces the likelihood of both losing weapons and death. You do know that losing all internal structure for a torso results in the loss of the entire side, right?

Total damage necessary to destroy a torso is the sum of both its armor and internal structure. However, someone hitting you in the back has to deliver a much smaller total of damage points because your back armor is so much thinner. Increased torso structure increases the total damage required from both front and back. Additional armor would only protect one or the other. If a torso is given +10 points it's better to go into structure which would be nearly equivalent to +20 armor. On the other hand, +10 to an arm or leg is better as armor because it has to be burned through before any critical hit chances can occur.

[Y E O N N E]

vandalhooch, on 13 November 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

This makes no sense. Increased torso structure reduces the likelihood of both losing weapons and death. You do know that losing all internal structure for a torso results in the loss of the entire side, right?

It makes sense because losing all of your weapons to crits is almost the same as being dead. Buffing structure on a Hunchback's right torso or a Mist Lynx's arms does nothing to help either, because the armor is easily breached and the weapons just get taken out by crits. Believe me, I lose the SRMs in my MLX right arm almost as soon as the armor gets breached, and I haven't even lost the arm yet. Heck, even my Marauder 5M loses one, usually both, AC/5 almost immediately when the armor is breached.

Most people are not getting shot in the back often enough to really care about increasing the hit-points there. They would rather have more front-loading.

[vandalhooch]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 November 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

It makes sense because losing all of your weapons to crits is almost the same as being dead.

No one "loses all their weapons to crits."

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Buffing structure on a Hunchback's right torso or a Mist Lynx's arms does nothing to help either, because the armor is easily breached and the weapons just get taken out by crits.

Seriously, crit weapon hits are not happening nearly as often as you are imagining.

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Believe me, I lose the SRMs in my MLX right arm almost as soon as the armor gets breached, and I haven't even lost the arm yet. Heck, even my Marauder 5M loses one, usually both, AC/5 almost immediately when the armor is breached.

Observation bias at work.

BTW: I already stated that additional armor is better for arms!

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Most people are not getting shot in the back often enough to really care about increasing the hit-points there.

What derp tier are you playing in?

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They would rather have more front-loading.

Internal structure on torsos gives front-loading and back-loading.

[Y E O N N E]

vandalhooch, on 13 November 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

No one "loses all their weapons to crits."

They do lose most of them, especially if they are invested in auto-cannons. I don't usually bother killing Marauders all the way because their 3x AC/5 or 2x LB-10X are gone before I finish off the side torso and I've got bigger fish to fry after that point. Atlas, similar story. The AC/20 and most of the missiles go poof before you even finish taking the whole side torso.

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Seriously, crit weapon hits are not happening nearly as often as you are imagining.

They are, because ACs and isSRM6A are huge and there is little else to take a crit in a side torso featuring those weapons. Remember the AC/20 before it received the HP buff? Gone instantly, every time. Which is why it got an HP buff (and still not enough IMHO). Same thing happens when you have a pair of isUAC/5 or AC/5, or an AC/10 and an AC/5, or a Gauss...which is why everybody squirms at taking an isGauss in an XL side torso.

What I don't lose often are torso energy weapons (or arm weapons on Blackjack-type 'Mechs), but that's because they are padded to high heaven with DHS. I will almost always lose at least one laser or PPC in my Marauder's arms (almost always left since I favor the right) without the arm going boom because there is nothing else to take the crit. I almost always lose at least one SRM and one cSPL in my MLX before the arms go boom as well. You can call it confirmation bias all you want, but that's the reality I see. I almost never take my STD engine AC/5 Marauder 5M or UAC Marauder 3R out of the hangar because I'm sick of losing the primary firepower to crits while the rest of the 'Mech is healthy; if I wanted to play a 4xMedLas 'Mech I'd take a Commando.

Worth noting, speed helps. My faster XL Marauders don't suffer the crit problem to the same degree, because they have a much better go of getting damage off of one component. Similar story with my Commandos versus my Mist Lynx, despite both having similarly huge arms with no padding.

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BTW: I already stated that additional armor is better for arms!

The reason it's better for arms is the same reason it would be better everywhere else, though.

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What derp tier are you playing in?

You mean what god tier am I playing in? Derp tier would be where everybody is getting shot in the arse. Because they are derps.

More seriously, most of the rear damage I take is either friendly fire or a calculated risk. Yes, I often get surprised and somebody gets a good shot in (and in the aforementioned Marauder's case, it often takes out at least one AC), but that's something that happens maybe once per match and it's rarely fatal.

Note, I almost never play Assaults. If you play a lot of Assaults, I can see where you would care so much about having more hit-points in the back.

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Internal structure on torsos gives front-loading and back-loading.

Increased armor does, too. I can choose where I put the amount that I'm allowed to allocate, which means wherever I think I need to be stronger I can enhance. It's not like we don't have any control over where damage goes. In addition, armor stops any and all critical damage, meaning no weapon will ever roll to do more damage to the hit-points against armor.

The only times I would maybe rather have a structure buff are:
- Center torso
- Side torsos with maximum of two energy or missile hard-points each and where they are not the majority of the firepower

And that's it. The missile one only applies if I'm not using anything larger than SRM4A. Even then, I'd likely be just as satisfied with increased armor.

[mogs01gt]

vandalhooch, on 13 November 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

This makes no sense. Increased torso structure reduces the likelihood of both losing weapons and death.

No it doesnt. The increased structure only saves the ST and causes you to lose the hardpoint. Crit padding would be the only way to save the hardpoint when structure quirks are preset. This is the specific issue with mechs like the Hunchie were they have increase structure but doesnt address the issue of losing the hardpoint. Any mech without arms to shield the ST's run into this problem.