153 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

Blood Asp is an Omnimech, it won't get any inflation just like others. The Bane however doesn't need any inflation because outside of boating 12-14 MGs it already has more hardpoints than it can reliably use in this game.

The only real advantage of the Bane is its ability to mount a larger engine, it may have high mounts but they are spread out wide unless you go full asym (which has its own share of issues) which makes it much less useful. The Whale has more clustered hardpoints which can easily matter more than high mounts (ie if it is near as wide as the Victor), the Whale will have the better mounts.

Read the full post. PGI's hardpoint inflation can easily mean other Clan mechs besides those two can boat a bunch of CUACs. Heck, Clan mech as small as HBK-IIC can boat 3xCUAC5s or 2xCUAC10s without sacrificing too much. Something nigh impossible for IS mechs to emulate.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 09:13 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Read the full post. PGI's hardpoint inflation can easily mean other Clan mechs besides those two can boat a bunch of CUACs. Heck, Clan mech as small as HBK-IIC can boat 3xCUAC5s or 2xCUAC10s without sacrificing too much. Something nigh impossible for IS mechs to emulate.

BSW can do 3 AC5s or 2 AC10s with the mere sacrifice of speed

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

Read the full post. PGI's hardpoint inflation can easily mean other Clan mechs besides those two can boat a bunch of CUACs.

So? They won't be used for that unless they are better able to do that than current platforms. That said, while I do agree that it is bogus that Clans can boat 4 UAC10s with an XL but the IS can't, that doesn't mean that Clans should get their weapons nerfed, that means something is wrong with the slots situation (in that it is stupid, they would be smart to go the MW4 route and have no systematic limits, only arbitrary limits on the slots per section).

That said, there is still a problem with these changes, in that they are isolated rather than across the board, which leads to a shift to an even less diverse meta (which has been going downhill since the KDK-3 came into the game) and doesn't actually improve balance (in part because of what I listed above).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 November 2016 - 09:20 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 November 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

BSW can do 3 AC5s or 2 AC10s with the mere sacrifice of speed

Yeah, at 5 tons more, with slower speed than HBK-IIC, and using insta death XL engine. What a wonderful example.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

So? They won't be used for that unless they are better able to do that than current platforms. That said, while I do agree that it is bogus that Clans can boat 4 UAC10s with an XL but the IS can't, that doesn't mean that Clans should get their weapons nerfed, that means something is wrong with the slots situation (in that it is stupid, they would be smart to go the MW4 route and have no systematic limits, only arbitrary limits on the slots per section).

That said, there is still a problem with these changes, in that they are isolated rather than across the board, which leads to a shift to an even less diverse meta (which has been going downhill since the KDK-3 came into the game) and doesn't actually improve balance (in part because of what I listed above).

And as I said many many times over, other IS/Clan weapons and equipments should also be brought in line with each other. Then people will shut up about CUAC nerf.

[Gas Guzzler]

Well they could always NOT nerf the IS AC5/UAC5 heat...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

And as I said many many times over, other IS/Clan weapons and equipments should also be brought in line with each other. Then people will shut up about CUAC nerf.

They can't nor should they be done piecemeal, that's not how it should ever work with balance changes like this. When trying to normalize things like IS and Clan balance, it should be done across the board in small increments in iterations, rather than bringing large changes to only certain areas over iterations.

Gas Guzzler, on 14 November 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

Well they could always NOT nerf the IS AC5/UAC5 heat...

Honestly, it should've been done in some fashion, it is just they chose the wrong direction (everything should've been brought down to its DPH).

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Honestly, it should've been done in some fashion, it is just they chose the wrong direction (everything should've been brought down to its DPH).

I meant the IS ACs could have a slight DPH benefit to balance vs the Clan options. How it gets there is up for debate, and the only AC I felt was really out of line for heat was the AC2, which got a nice buff this patch. We shall see how it goes..

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

They can't nor should they be done piecemeal, that's not how it should ever work with balance changes like this. When trying to normalize things like IS and Clan balance, it should be done across the board in small increments in iterations, rather than bringing large changes to only certain areas over iterations.

Peacemeal is how PGI had been doing the Clan vs. IS balancing. You got issues, take it up to them.
I am just glad that they are still willing to further balance the difference, even though it happened two years too late.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Peacemeal is how PGI had been doing the Clan vs. IS balancing. You got issues, take it up to them.

What do you think this thread is about? The meta will shift to a less diverse meta BECAUSE they are doing these changes like this. This change wasn't made because of IS vs Clan balance, it was made because CUACs were doing too much damage without running into a jam, little does PGI realize that the real problem is how they are trying to control a weapon with double the damage potential with RNG.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 November 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

What do you think this thread is about? The meta will shift to a less diverse meta BECAUSE they are doing these changes like this. This change wasn't made because of IS vs Clan balance, it was made because CUACs were doing too much damage without running into a jam, little does PGI realize that the real problem is how they are trying to control a weapon with double the damage potential with RNG.

Of course IS vs. Clan balance will be affected, CW in particular. Less dakka from Clan side means the IS side will have better chacne to be on equal grounds. And PGI already went with the jam chance from day one. That's not likely gonna change until the end.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 November 2016 - 11:15 PM, said:

Alright, many of you may remember when Clan mechs came out, there was only one weapon that was really worth putting into ballistic slots: Gauss. Gauss has been nerfed, UACs were buffed and now there is some semblance of balance between Gauss and UACs, each having a more specific roles.

With this latest nerf package on UACs, we are legitimately going to see a trend of mechs switching back to Gauss rifles only. This is BAD. Please test the UACs on release and provide feedback to show that balance suffers from this round of changes. Perhaps a softer hand is necessary to tone down the DPS slightly, while still leaving the ability to sustain a push so they are more than just an inferior poke weapon.

It's basically PGI once again missing the forest for the trees.

1x UAC of any kind on any mech is basically a waste of tonnage, it's not even good if you only have say 2x CUAC 10s and little else.

Once you get into the realm of 3+ CUACs, now its an actual build that can go toe to toe vs. other builds is specific circumstances.


Address the 3+ builds by first having a concept of what their actual role is (the part that Paul hasn't actually thought about) and then tone them down so they can still perform that role but not too far outside of whatever performance goal you've set.

Instead all UACs get nerfed to where they are severely risky to use...in the more critical situations you would actually want to use them in.


If it weren't for my unit still doing MRBC, I'd have quit this game already.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Of course IS vs. Clan balance will be affected, CW in particular.

No one (should) cares about a broken game mode's balance.

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Less dakka from Clan side means the IS side will have better chacne to be on equal grounds.

The problem is much deeper than you seem to make it out. There is more at play than just jam chances, keeping in mind that before the Dakka Kodiak came about, the best Dakka mechs were actually in the IS (Dakka Mauler, Dakka Warhammer).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 November 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 November 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

The problem is much deeper than you seem to make it out. There is more at play than just jam chances, keeping in mind that before the Dakka Kodiak came about, the best Dakka mechs were actually in the IS (Dakka Mauler, Dakka Warhammer).

These were hit pretty badly by resize and structure nerfs, weren't they?

Anyways, it's not hard to improve this nerf.

Problem: They hurt dakka-dps by ~15%. Solution: Decrease cooldown by 15% on all AC and UACs.
Problem: They made weapon jam too long. Solution: Decrease jam time and increase jam probability to the same average dps.

Anything else?

Edited by Duke Nedo, 14 November 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Duke Nedo, on 14 November 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

These were hit pretty badly by resize and structure nerfs, weren't they?

No, the Warhammer and Mauler had their offensive quirks nerfed. Alongside that, the KDK-3 is marginally slower than the Dakkahammer yet dakkas harder than the Mauler and has better hardpoints than both of them.

Duke Nedo, on 14 November 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Problem: They made weapon jam too long. Solution: Decrease jam time and increase jam probability to the same average dps.

In my opinion this would be a better solution than what they have decided to do. Shifting things more towards the average DPS role is better than trying to relegate dakka to a poke role which other weapon systems are better suited for.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 November 2016 - 11:06 AM.

[Gaden Phoenix]

The way people are promoting Clan Gauss + CERPPCs as OPed, get ready for a nerf in a month or soon.

I too think Clan Gauss + CERPPCs is a really better/good combo, luckily or unluckily it needs alot of skill unlike boating UACs, so less people will pawn in them and thus less likely to get nerfed. But if you all keep on praising them to high heaven... it is coming.

If PGI cannot increase TTK by ED, they will find some other way.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Just delete all the weapons from the game already!

[Revis Volek]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

Overall power level is decreasing across the board. Gauss/UACs/Clan lasers of today and post patch will not be as strong as that of the past. Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.



UACs will still do good sustain damage even after nerf. People will simply have to be mindful of the risks when double tapping. It will serve its purpose that is different from that of Gauss. Though to be fair, 12 ton Clan Gauss is still horsedung. IS can't compete with that using their 15 ton Gauss.

But they arent touching my Goose waffle so forget BEING CAREFUL, Gauss, ERPPC all day ery day from here till servers close i guess.

This isnt the change you are looking for, blanker nerfs to curb the issues of one or two chassis have never worked in the thousands of times PGI has done it and i dont see it succeeding here.

[Templar Dane]

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

Overall power level is decreasing across the board. Gauss/UACs/Clan lasers of today and post patch will not be as strong as that of the past. Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

Which suits me just fine, as it serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

El Bandito, on 13 November 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

serves my agenda of increasing TTK.

There's a pretty big problem in that that increase of TTK only applies to clan mechs. Though I mean it's a good thing we don't have any sort of IS vs CLAN game mode or anything.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

Joystick and wheel pilots killing the game one nerf this post at a time and I'm just here remembering when closed beta was good.

[El Bandito]

Templar Dane, on 14 November 2016 - 04:43 PM, said:

There's a pretty big problem in that that increase of TTK only applies to clan mechs. Though I mean it's a good thing we don't have any sort of IS vs CLAN game mode or anything.

Clan tech shouldbe taken down a peg to be balanced with IS tech, just so IS doesn't have to rely on big quirks, but then again, it seems you haven't read any of my later posts on the subject. Why do you think even the best IS mechs have quirks?

Revis Volek, on 14 November 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

But they arent touching my Goose waffle so forget BEING CAREFUL, Gauss, ERPPC all day ery day from here till servers close i guess.

This isnt the change you are looking for, blanker nerfs to curb the issues of one or two chassis have never worked in the thousands of times PGI has done it and i dont see it succeeding here.

Read my later posts. Clan Gauss will also needed to be balanced against IS Gauss as part of the overall tech balancing, which likely means, you guessed it, nerfs. I am pushing that agenda from now on.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 05:40 PM.