153 replies to this topic

[JC Daxion]

Clan UAC10

• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 15%)

• Jam Duration increased to 8s (from 5s)

Clan UAC/20

• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 15%)

• Jam Duration increased to 8s (from 5s

Clan UAC/10

• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 15%

• Jam Duration increased to 8s (from 5s)

Clan UAC/20


• Jam Chance increased to 17% (from 15%)

• Jam Duration increased to 8s (from 5s)




Having a very hard time seeing how a tiny jam% increase is the end of this weapon.. But as we all know, any change that means a tiny bit less damage is the worst thing ever.

People are complaining about 2%!!!!! and yea, it will lock a bit longer on the bigger ones.. I have no issue with that, and this coming from the person, that typically only has 1 or 2 UAC's.. It's still a better weapon than the clan AC's

Edited by JC Daxion, 14 November 2016 - 06:17 AM.

[GrimRiver]

Jikil, on 14 November 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

If boating UACs was the issue why not just increase the jam duration based on how many ballistics you mount?

If you wanna run quad uac dakka machine thats fine just be prepared for long timeouts when your weapons lock up.

Meanwhile things like a single UAC20 can be decent since a jam won't neuter your ability to fight.

I'd like something like this.

It's been stated in lore that mechs with alot of dakka had frequent loading issues, then again alot mechs in lore with 1 (U)AC also had loading issues too.

Maybe for every UAC, jam chance goes up by 5% of something like that?

Edited by GrimRiver, 14 November 2016 - 06:15 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

There is/was only one problematic clan uac boat, the KDK-3. And the it was the UAC boating that made it problematic, because the gauss/ppc build has been stronger on that mech than the dakka boats from the start.

All the other uac builds on all other mechs have been well balanced as far as I know. I think the Dire Wolf is the only remaining mech where uac boating is actually still the strongest build for the mech, and it's not even that good.

Again, it's not only about which builds are the best in competitive tournaments. It's also about balancing ACs vs UACs, and cUACs vs UACs. In these two cases it's all about how much gain one should get from the double-tap boost. In that setting, I think that especially cUAC10 was over-performing, and so did cUAC5 and UAC5. (For AC20's I think there was some kind of near parity trade-offs, and for AC2s I don't care). 2x cUAC10 was (is) on HBK-IIc, EBJ and TBR a power-house in that setting for example.

That doesn't mean that these builds beat Gauss+PPC or some other PPFLD setup. In that competitive setting it's only about the raw dps output (I mean that DPS must be high enough for them to even be considered), and for that balance issue it would be better to tweak the cooldown of the weapon base stats for all UACs, once the double-tap booster feature is at an reasonable power-level.

Thus, I am all for reducing the double-tap a bit, but I would also not mind if they reduced the cooldown a bit on all ACs and UACs to buff the over all DPS on non-gauss ballistics. This because I don't think the over all DPS is the problem, but the double-tap frontload is wildly dis-proportional in terms of risk/reward/tonnage/space.

Edits: I type like a cow.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 14 November 2016 - 06:18 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Vellron2005, on 14 November 2016 - 02:22 AM, said:

Hahahahahaha... here come the "please don't nerf my Dakka beast" threads...

All I can say is.. Eat LRM!

And I say unto you, "Eat PPC/Gauss"

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 04:42 AM, said:

Doesn't sound worse than letting Clanners min-max those CUACs on those boats.

Imo, it sounds worse.
Now they'll bring more gauss-laser or gauss-ppc, so with highpinpoint builds TTK will go down, not up.

[Bandilly]

Hadrogh, on 13 November 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

I don't want to roll a dice in a high dps engagement.

Ironic you should mention that since the TT game started this all. In TT the UAC was an ultimate gamble to double tap, twice the heat and a chance to permanently jam the weapon all for that slight chance (<50%) both shots landed.

So, if the UAC was ported over properly we'd drop the high jam chance for a small chance to be destroyed and any double tap shot would have around a 60% chance of flying straight up into the air hitting nothing. In TT a normal autocannon or solid slug LBX was a much safer choice, you didn't mount UACs unless you were willing to risk it.

[STEF_]

Kmieciu, on 14 November 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

I think I'll be fine in my 2xUAC10 HBK-IIC.
It will still have 69% chance to deal 40 damage with less exposure than ERML+LPL.

Except that you'll be useless for 8 seconds.
So that build won0t be used at close range anymore, and guess what? Playing with more range players will see that bringing gauss or ppc builds is far better

[Sjorpha]

Duke Nedo, on 14 November 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

Thus, I am all for reducing the double-tap a bit, but I would also not mind if they reduced the cooldown a bit on all ACs and UACs to buff the over all DPS on non-gauss ballistics. This because I don't think the over all DPS is the problem, but the double-tap frontload is wildly dis-proportional in terms of risk/reward/tonnage/space.

Yeah, I'd be ok with that solution. Keep the planned changes but up the base DPS on all dakka, sounds like a good idea that also makes IS ACs potentially relevant. Needs to be enough to fully compensate the DPS decrease of the planned changes though.

That isn't what's happening though. Your idea would make the changes ok, but since it's not being done that way they aren't.

Edited by Sjorpha, 14 November 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[GrimRiver]

Also I believe it "might" make C-AC's a viable alternative to the upcoming risk vs reward C-UAC nerf.

[William Pryde]

FupDup, on 13 November 2016 - 11:21 PM, said:

How do we nerf the high-end boats while still keeping the single-mounts useful? I really don't know the answer to this question.

Perhaps PGI could implement a solution a little more complex than blanket nerfs, such as basing your jam percentage off of how many UACs of a certain class (5, 10, etc.) you have mounted on your 'Mech (though I really wish that they would come up with a solution that is not based off of pure random chance).

[El Bandito]

Sjorpha, on 14 November 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

What happens is that they will probably be more imbalanced with gauss than with uacs, just like the kodiak is. So the preemptive measure will do absolutely nothing to prevent them from being overpowered, just like this uac nerf has no balancing effect on the kodiak, all it does is destroy other mechs like the Dire wolf and any attempt to make a good clan dakka mech on any chassis.

Oh, don't worry. CUAC balance is just the beginning. This time I'm gonna push for balancing the BS 12 ton CGauss against 15 ton IS Gauss. I am not gonna stop until both sides' base tech is of equal but different value.

GrimRiver, on 14 November 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

Also I believe it "might" make C-AC's a viable alternative to the upcoming risk vs reward C-UAC nerf.

Not gonna happen. CUACs have more DPS than CACs even without double tapping.

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 November 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Imo, it sounds worse.
Now they'll bring more gauss-laser or gauss-ppc, so with highpinpoint builds TTK will go down, not up.

TTK will go up due to long recharge time of Gauss. Besides, I bet a lot of pugs don't even know how to shoot Gauss well, and likely never will.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 06:30 AM.

[STEF_]

Kmieciu, on 14 November 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

I know where you're coming from, but that's more of a fault of inferior IS mech design. If you can't fit 2xUAC5 with XL, you go with 2xAC5+AC2 (SHD-5H, MAD-3R), or UAC5+2xAC2 (DRG-5N), or just use a chassis that can support 2xUAC5 (like ENF-5P, RFL, JM6, CPLT-K2, WHM, CTF-3D...)


I admire anyone that can carry their team using those builds, especially on a mech with no velocity quirks.

If you miss with 2xC-ERPPC, you've just wasted 28 points of heat. 28 points of heat could be used by a UAC10 build to deal 93,24 damage...

I assure you that I will change all muy uac5+laser builds into ac5/ppc one.
Instead of dps, I go highpinpointdmg.
So, once again, nerfing a weapon that spread dmg is so wrong: because ppl will use pinpoint builds, bringing TTK down, not up like EL Bandito would.

[Sjorpha]

JC Daxion, on 14 November 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

Having a very hard time seeing how a tiny jam% increase is the end of this weapon.. But as we all know, any change that means a tiny bit less damage is the worst thing ever.

People are complaining about 2%!!!!! and yea, it will lock a bit longer on the bigger ones.. I have no issue with that, and this coming from the person, that typically only has 1 or 2 UAC's.. It's still a better weapon than the clan AC's

It represents a DPS decrease of much more than 2%. Look at the analysis.

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Oh, don't worry. CUAC balance is just the beginning. This time I'm gonna push for balancing BS 12 ton CGauss against 15 ton IS Gauss. I am not gonna stop until both sides' base tech is of equal but different value.

This we agree 100% on, IS and Clan tech should be balances ton for ton in usefulness.

[Widowmaker1981]

Bandilly, on 14 November 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Ironic you should mention that since the TT game started this all. In TT the UAC was an ultimate gamble to double tap, twice the heat and a chance to permanently jam the weapon all for that slight chance (<50%) both shots landed.

So, if the UAC was ported over properly we'd drop the high jam chance for a small chance to be destroyed and any double tap shot would have around a 60% chance of flying straight up into the air hitting nothing. In TT a normal autocannon or solid slug LBX was a much safer choice, you didn't mount UACs unless you were willing to risk it.

Except that is just gibberish, you fired if you had heat - because probability says its a good choice (2.7% chance of jamming, 50%+ chance of hitting). Sure, if you needed an 11 or 12 to hit it was a poor choice, but 10 or better? Idiot if you don't.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Oh, don't worry. CUAC balance is just the beginning. This time I'm gonna push for balancing the BS 12 ton CGauss against 15 ton IS Gauss. I am not gonna stop until both sides' base tech is of equal but different value.




Not gonna happen. CUACs have more DPS than CACs even without double tapping.




TTK will go up due to long recharge time of Gauss. Besides, I bet a lot of pugs don't even know how to shoot Gauss well, and likely never will.

My reasoning is this: with that long recharge time, you cannot go at med-close range anymore with uac10.
You need safe space behind to recharge. BUT at longer range, players will see the gauss as better weapon: no spread, no jam, and all those 15dmg go in a single hitbox AKA easier to kill, so TTK down.

UAC10: 8 second to unjam+seconds to recharge!!!
IT's a life time!!!
We will see less diversity in the battlefield, and I don't like this neither.

As you say, pugs are going to pug, or potatoes are going to potato. But that's with any weapon changes.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 November 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

If a UAC10 jams you will have to wait 10.5 seconds before you can shoot it again (assuming you have a cooldown module). That is very costly. This is essentially going to put the UAC10 in IS AC10 territory, which is underpowered.

CUAC20 is about a 12 second wait. As if that weapon wasn't already bad.

[El Bandito]

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 November 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

My reasoning is this: with that long recharge time, you cannot go at med-close range anymore with uac10.
You need safe space behind to recharge. BUT at longer range, players will see the gauss as better weapon: no spread, no jam, and all those 15dmg go in a single hitbox AKA easier to kill, so TTK down.

UAC10: 8 second to unjam+seconds to recharge!!!
IT's a life time!!!
We will see less diversity in the battlefield, and I don't like this neither.

As you say, pugs are going to pug, or potatoes are going to potato. But that's with any weapon changes.

That's just the thing, you can go into mid range with CUAC10s. You just don't have to double tap it unless it is the right time. Of course, that is beyond many puggers' comprehension. Finally, PGI decided to run with this jam % thing, so that's as close as they can get to balancing them.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 06:49 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

That's just the thing, you can go into mid range with CUAC10s. You just don't have to double tap it unless it is the right time. Of course, that is beyond many puggers' comprehension. Finally, PGI decided to run with this jam % thing, so that's as close as they can get to balancing them.

And that's just the thing. If you aren't double tapping all the time, the weapon isn't good enough to justify bringing, unless you really don't care. If we want to make the cUAC10 a single slug, then making doubletapping risky would make sense. But right now, burst fire kind of makes the double tap burst DPS very important.

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 14 November 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

That's just the thing, you can go into mid range with CUAC10s. You just don't have to double tap it unless it is the right time. Of course, that is beyond many puggers' comprehension. Finally, PGI decided to run with this jam % thing, so that's as close as they can get to balancing them.

but uac10 spread dmg, El.
IS ac10 doesn't.

For my point of view, uac10 will be useless for me.

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 November 2016 - 06:55 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 November 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

And that's just the thing. If you aren't double tapping all the time, the weapon isn't good enough to justify bringing, unless you really don't care. If we want to make the cUAC10 a single slug, then making doubletapping risky would make sense. But right now, burst fire kind of makes the double tap burst DPS very important.

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 November 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

but uac10 spread dmg, El.
IS ac10 doesn't.

For my point of view, uac10 will be useless for me.

CUAC10 is a 540 meter range, 10 ton, 4 Slot weapon, that can be dual boated on an XL torso.
IS AC10 has 450 meter range, 12 tons, and 7 slots! Sorry if Clan's precious CUAC10 got nurfed, but with one frigging look at the stats, one should realize that having burst fire is necessary!

It is high time for the rest of the Clan/IS weapons/equipments be equalized, and I am glad it started somewhere. Now we need to equalize Gauss, ERPPC, XL engine, and all the misc equipments such as BAP/ECM?NARC/CASE, where Clan versions are flat out superior.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 November 2016 - 07:09 AM.