20 replies to this topic

[wolf74]

What are you all Thought on this Possible change.

The Minor Change I suggest is, ECM only Block 2nd Hand Locks. AKA if your a Mech With LRM and You have LOS (Line of Sight) to a Target you can get a Lock with your LRMs. No Tag Laser Need, If you loss the LOS the Lock is Lost instantly due to ECM. But this Lock is only a Image missile lock only , NOT a Mech Shareable lock that other can use.

Edited by wolf74, 15 November 2016 - 09:00 AM.

[El Bandito]

Yeah, ECM is BS, and it cockblocks entire weapon systems. Delayed lock instead of outright denial might be better.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Guardian ECM cannot block LRM locks. Angel ECM can, though. It has been years and PGI still will not admit that they implemented Angel ECM and called it "Guardian."

[nehebkau]

BAP already nullifies ECM at range. That is enough to get a volley or 2 off and then open up with your primary weapons... If you are boating LRMs / using LRMs as your primary weapon -- JUST DON'T!

In reality, like bandito said, ECM should really slow down locking and disrupt target info sharing. For that to happen, the game would need to change so that no targeting data should be shared unless 1. A mech has a targeting computer installed for both sending AND receiving target data (meaning if you want others target info you need a comp, if you want to send target info you need a comp). Targeting comps should take up weight and crits (like on the clan mechs). Smaller comps have less range, bigger comps more range. LRMs fired via a shared target lock should take 2x - 3x the time to lock on as normally would with LOS. Things like UAVs should only work for mechs that have a targeting computer installed to receive the UAV's transmission. BAP should negate the ECM target sharing issues for the mech that has BAP installed only -- meaning that a mech caught in an ECM bubble without BAP would not share any targeting data while a mech with BAP would not have that issue. A mech without BAP caught in an ECM bubble would have 2x to 3x greater time to get locks. Additionally I would like to see ECM modules affect BOTH friendly and Enemy mechs the same (i.e. ECM is capable of friendly fire). This would make turning ECM OFF and ON important depending on the situation. Think of ECM as a train idling next to you when you are trying to talk to someone (share target data) without shouting or other help you won't hear each other -- regardless of if you own the locomotive engine or someone else does. Finally, a mech with ECM running would be much harder for a mech to get target info on so the time to get target info would be 3x to 4x longer.


Finally, LRMs should adjust their trajectory according to how close the mech is to the launcher -- less parabolic / flat flight path for close targets more parabolic for farther away.

However we have had this argument 1000 times on these forums and, in the end, PGI want's some stealth classes.

[Felicitatem Parco]

nehebkau, on 15 November 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

BAP already nullifies ECM at range. That is enough to get a volley or 2 off and then open up with your primary weapons... If you are boating LRMs / using LRMs as your primary weapon -- JUST DON'T!

In reality, like bandito said, ECM should really slow down locking and disrupt target info sharing. For that to happen, the game would need to change so that no targeting data should be shared unless 1. A mech has a targeting computer installed for both sending AND receiving target data (meaning if you want others target info you need a comp, if you want to send target info you need a comp). Targeting comps should take up weight and crits (like on the clan mechs). Smaller comps have less range, bigger comps more range. LRMs fired via a shared target lock should take 2x - 3x the time to lock on as normally would with LOS. Things like UAVs should only work for mechs that have a targeting computer installed to receive the UAV's transmission. BAP should negate the ECM target sharing issues for the mech that has BAP installed only -- meaning that a mech caught in an ECM bubble without BAP would not share any targeting data while a mech with BAP would not have that issue. A mech without BAP caught in an ECM bubble would have 2x to 3x greater time to get locks. Additionally I would like to see ECM modules affect BOTH friendly and Enemy mechs the same (i.e. ECM is capable of friendly fire). This would make turning ECM OFF and ON important depending on the situation. Think of ECM as a train idling next to you when you are trying to talk to someone (share target data) without shouting or other help you won't hear each other -- regardless of if you own the locomotive engine or someone else does. Finally, a mech with ECM running would be much harder for a mech to get target info on so the time to get target info would be 3x to 4x longer.


Finally, LRMs should adjust their trajectory according to how close the mech is to the launcher -- less parabolic / flat flight path for close targets more parabolic for farther away.

However we have had this argument 1000 times on these forums and, in the end, PGI want's some stealth classes.

Wrong. An enemy at range cannot be targeted for LRMs even if you have BAP. You need to illuminate them with a TAG laser or NARC beacon before they can be targeted.

Like I said, PGI implemented Angel ECM and erroneously called it Guardian ECM.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 15 November 2016 - 09:37 AM.

[Mcgral18]

I have a simple Equipment.XML trick which will blow your mind.

Switch this

<GECMStats targetingfactor="0.25" weaponlockfactor="0.5" range="90"/>

To this

<GECMStats targetingfactor="0.5" weaponlockfactor="0.5" range="90"/>

Suddenly, you can lock them at 400M
Whether the carrier, or any target inside a Magic Jesus Box
Enough distance to close, but more than 20M from LRM min range.

That's with the current double lock acquisition



We can haz Super Simple Stuff™?

Edited by Mcgral18, 15 November 2016 - 09:55 AM.

[Metus regem]

Mcgral18, on 15 November 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

I have a simple Equipment.XML trick which will blow your mind.

Switch this

<GECMStats targetingfactor="0.25" weaponlockfactor="0.5" range="90"/>

To this

<GECMStats targetingfactor="0.5" weaponlockfactor="0.5" range="90"/>

Suddenly, you can lock them at 400M
Whether the carrier, or any target inside a Magic Jesus Box
Enough distance to close, but more than 20M from LRM min range.

That's with the current double lock acquisition



We can haz Super Simple Stuff™?

Because I seriously question Paul's (or whom ever the current lead programmer is) ability to do their job, when easy fixes are left to languish for months and months...

And by simple fixes, I mean XML edits that could be done for the next patch....

[Rush Maguin]

I'm fine with ECM as it is. I doubt the timeline will roll forward far enough for Angel ECMs to be relevant so I'm not concerned with that. I think every lance should have ECM.

[nehebkau]

Prosperity Park, on 15 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Wrong. An enemy at range cannot be targeted for LRMs even if you have BAP. You need to illuminate them with a TAG laser or NARC beacon before they can be targeted.

Like I said, PGI implemented Angel ECM and erroneously called it Guardian ECM.

What exactly do you consider RANGE? Are you like most LRMers and consider anything <800M as being brawling range? Seems like clanners and some IS pilots have no problem hitting me with LRMs from ~180m away.

Got an idea for you DITCH the frigging LRMs and use some direct fire weapons then ECM doesn't matter. ECM is only around because there are so many pickle-fingers who would happily play the game sitting back at 999m and mashing the same button over and over while squealing with joy "Look mommy I has missiles. Foosh! Foosh!"

[Steve Pryde]

El Bandito, on 15 November 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yeah, ECM is BS, and it cockblocks entire weapon systems. Delayed lock instead of outright denial might be better.

We told this PGI for years and nothing happened cause... PGI.

[Lykaon]

nehebkau, on 15 November 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

BAP already nullifies ECM at range. That is enough to get a volley or 2 off and then open up with your primary weapons... If you are boating LRMs / using LRMs as your primary weapon -- JUST DON'T!

Here is the falt in this thinking.

Firstly it makes it seem like BAP is an adiquate countermeasure allowing LRMs to function.

The truth is BAP counters ECM at a rang of 360m (I believe) LRMs have a minimum range of 180m. So Even with BAP an active ECM that is carrier on the target of the LRMs has effectivley turned the effective launch window of LRMs into a doughnut with a 181m to 360m bracket or an effective launch window of 180m total.

Any closer and no damage is inflicted.
Any further and ECM breaks the lock.

The whole situation is actually different in practice so say your target for the LRMs is 300m away (inside BAP countermeasure range) and the enemy ECM is carried on a seperate mech from the LRM target that is 80m behind the LRM target ...well your SOL buddy because the ECM is covering the intended target and is still outside BAP countermeasure range. So no locks for you unless you close o within BAP countermeasure range of the ECM carrier and that could place enemy mechs uncomfortably close to a ranged support mech.

Secondly...just saying don't is being dismissive of an entire weapons catagory that instead of being dismissed should be adressed to make them a better choice.

LRMs should be adjusted into a more effective weapon system rather than either used effectivley by experienced experts or lobbed willy nilly by NUBE TUBERs and not really performing effectivley for the amount of ammo expended. (there is a reason for nubetube LRM boats for loading up 10+ tons of ammo,about 4 tons of it will hit a target.

[El Bandito]

Lykaon, on 15 November 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

LRMs should be adjusted into a more effective weapon system rather than either used effectivley by experienced experts or lobbed willy nilly by NUBE TUBERs and not really performing effectivley for the amount of ammo expended. (there is a reason for nubetube LRM boats for loading up 10+ tons of ammo,about 4 tons of it will hit a target.

With its spread mechanic, LRMs really should get 200 ammo per ton. That way it can be more easily combined with other weapons, or larger engines.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 November 2016 - 05:52 PM.

[MadcatX]

Only got one issue with ECM:

The only mid-long range counter that a person who is actually running the mech with the LRM's is TAG. The fact that one of the counters to ECM uses an energy hardpoint whereas every LRM countermeasure not counting modules have their own dedicated hardpoints, that erks me.

[Tristan Winter]

First we need infotech, then we can nerf ECM. Right now, there's virtually zero stealth in MWO. It's like playing hide-and-seek with 10 people in a living room. As soon as you leave cover, someone will get an instant target lock from 800+ meters away, even if you're hiding behind vegetation or if you're partially concealed by buildings (aka hull down).

I get that it's the future and we have space magic robots, but the gameplay suffers when every mech on the battlefield is essentially omniscient.

[jjm1]

There is a solution for no LRM lock. Its called having a backup weapon.

You cant boat a support weapon and expect it to be an all purpose primary weapon.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Which Soldiers carry only a Launcher of the Battlefield with no Maingun ?

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 15 November 2016 - 09:10 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Prosperity Park, on 15 November 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Wrong. An enemy at range cannot be targeted for LRMs even if you have BAP. You need to illuminate them with a TAG laser or NARC beacon before they can be targeted.

Like I said, PGI implemented Angel ECM and erroneously called it Guardian ECM.

Well that's false because I lock stuff just fine all the time with merely having a BAP on my LRM mechs even if they have an ecm chit showing on their target dorito.

[El Bandito]

Dee Eight, on 16 November 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Well that's false because I lock stuff just fine all the time with merely having a BAP on my LRM mechs even if they have an ecm chit showing on their target dorito.

That's cause those ECM mechs have been revealed through other means, not from your BAP. Not from beyond 360 meters. That's a fact. You can't argue against facts.

Old MW4 Ranger, on 15 November 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

Which Soldiers carry only a Launcher of the Battlefield with no Maingun ?

When the launcher is your main gun, as in the case of Catapults. Also, most of the back up weapons of IS LRM boats have terribly short range, and once ECM cockblocks their main weapon, those back ups do nothing against the enemy at mid range.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 November 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[Albino Boo]

Reworking so that Lrms are viable weapon system in tier 1-2 would mean they would be overpowered in tier 5-4. PGI balances for the mid point not the much smaller number of tier 1 players.

[El Bandito]

Albino Boo, on 16 November 2016 - 12:41 AM, said:

Reworking so that Lrms are viable weapon system in tier 1-2 would mean they would be overpowered in tier 5-4. PGI balances for the mid point not the much smaller number of tier 1 players.

Mid point? LRMs are already considered sub-par for the average players, compared other weapon groups.