102 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Sjorpha, on 19 November 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

That process is a good thing though. It's good that "the lemmings" do their best to break the strongest things in online games, that is how you get enough good data for the necessary nerfs and buffs. If Gauss/PPC now emerges as a too dominating meta, then that will expose a need to balance them and it will be good to do that as well. We already know that clan gauss/ppc are strictly superior, which is bad design. This might be a road to finally adress that and make them equally good so that IS gauss is actually worth 3 tons more and so on.

But when does it stop?

That is the problem with this cycle. Seriously, when your dealing with a bunch of different things that do damage but in different ways, your never going to get balance because quite simply they are different. The only way to balance anything is to make them equal and you do that by eliminating anything different. Same goes for mechs.

My point is that the ONLY way to have true balance is to have one mech and one build, as soon as anything changes in that formula you no longer have balance.

So back to the cycle. UACs are the thing? Nerf UAC. PPCs are the thing? Nerf PPCs. Lasers are the thing? Nerf Lasers. Round and round we go until we are back to UACs being the thing. Eventually all we have left is one weapon on one mech because again that is the ONLY way to achieve true balance.

Or.....you try to just get things to some semblance of balance AND STOP SCREWING WITH IT. Sure you will have a few weapons or mechs that will perform better in some circumstances (KDK-3) but that is one fricken mech variant out of 100s of them.

[Zergling]

davoodoo, on 19 November 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

The whole point of them Is to replace acs and lbx(except for crits)
They obsolete earlier acs the same way as dhs obsolete shs

Which is honestly a bad idea for a game that aims to be balanced.

[Templar Dane]

Zergling, on 19 November 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Which is honestly a bad idea for a game that aims to be balanced.

LBX are bad, nerfing uacs whlie leaving other weapons the same doesn't make LBX suddenly good. Not to even mention that clanners don't have standard autocannons to fall back on.

Well, technically they do but they require another slot and have no modules since they are placeholders put into the game because PGI couldn't figure out how to do ammo switching and weren't willing to make single-slug clan autocannons.

[KoalaBrownie]

Appogee, on 19 November 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

My Black Widow is certainly feeling the effects of the AC nerfing.

In Tier 5, anything is possible.

Not Tier 5 mate

[cazidin]

Wait. Did... did PGI shift the balance BACK to PPC/Gauss without buffing either weapon system?

[Mcgral18]

cazidin, on 19 November 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

Wait. Did... did PGI shift the balance BACK to PPC/Gauss without buffing either weapon system?

It's actually been going that way for a few months.
This is just reinforcing it.


Optimal chassis' helped it along, and some quirks (such as the Summoner, now with P2W pods)

[Y E O N N E]

It's been going that way since May.

[KoalaBrownie]

cazidin, on 19 November 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

Wait. Did... did PGI shift the balance BACK to PPC/Gauss without buffing either weapon system?

PPC got buffed, the ECM cancelling effect lasts longer

[RestosIII]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

It's actually been going that way for a few months.
This is just reinforcing it.


Optimal chassis' helped it along, and some quirks (such as the Summoner, now with P2W pods)

You know what REALLY gets to me about the Summoner loyalty pods? There are people saying that the Summoner should be nerfed, ALL of the Summoner variants, because "Eh, it was OP already, the loyalty pods are just making it worse." No. No it wasn't. Sometimes I wonder if people have long term memory issues when talking about balance for mechs. I've seen people say that they thought the term "Suckonner" was supposed to be ironic. PGI balance and some people that egg them on scare me.

[Zergling]

Yeah, Summoner definitely wasn't OP before the Loyalty hardpoints.

If it gets nerfed though, so should other high performing mechs, like the Timby, Night Gyr, Hunchback IIC and the still-not-adequately-nerfed KDK-3.

Edited by Zergling, 19 November 2016 - 07:23 PM.

[Mcgral18]

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

PPC got buffed, the ECM cancelling effect lasts longer

That's kind of a non-buff

No practical benefit

[cazidin]

Mcgral, we've almost gone full circle, haven't we? Also, Koalabrownie may be a PGI SPY!

Edited by cazidin, 19 November 2016 - 07:45 PM.

[KoalaBrownie]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 07:22 PM, said:

That's kind of a non-buff

No practical benefit

It's a benefit to LRMs, Streaks and for people who actually aim at weakened components.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 19 November 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[Appogee]

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Not Tier 5 mate

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

[KoalaBrownie]

Appogee, on 19 November 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

Point is if you have a single UAC and it jams, you either need to switch to back ups or just duck into cover until it clears again in the same way you might if you're too high up the heat-scale. It can be inconvenient sure, but most mechs with a single UAC will either have the speed to break contact or the tonnage to fire something else. If you have neither just stick with some lancemates and duck behind them or pull back when your weapon jams and rejoin when it clears.

[Mcgral18]

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

It's a benefit to LRMs, Streaks and for people who actually aim at weakened components.

Why is that?


BAP is better for Streaks (and 360M VS 396M max range is more than adequate), and TAG is a better investment for both locking missiles because it also decreases lock time (stacking with Artemis for 75% lock reduction)

PPCs eat up tonnage for ammo, heatsinks, BAP, armour, engine...or just about everything else more useful than PPCs on a LRM or Streak boat.


You're more likely to be the one causing weakened components with PPCs. I guess the extended time actually lets you see the paperdoll now, if the Red is Potato enough to stay in the open and eating PP FLD strikes.

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Point is if you have a single UAC and it jams, you either need to switch to back ups or just duck into cover until it clears again in the same way you might if you're too high up the heat-scale. It can be inconvenient sure, but most mechs with a single UAC will either have the speed to break contact or the tonnage to fire something else. If you have neither just stick with some lancemates and duck behind them or pull back when your weapon jams and rejoin when it clears.

You mean:

Take a Gauss Rifle instead, so you can do full damage into one location, and back into cover

[KoalaBrownie]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

Why is that?

BAP is better for Streaks (and 360M VS 396M max range is more than adequate), and TAG is a better investment for both locking missiles because it also decreases lock time (stacking with Artemis for 75% lock reduction)

PPCs eat up tonnage for ammo, heatsinks, BAP, armour, engine...or just about everything else more useful than PPCs on a LRM or Streak boat.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but this is a team game. So if one guy has PPCs and another guy has LRMs, the PPC guy nullifying say a Hellbringer's ECM will benefit the LRM firing his own weapons at said target.

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 11:17 PM, said:

You mean:

Take a Gauss Rifle instead, so you can do full damage into one location, and back into cover

If you can't direct all the damage from a UAC to one location you need to aim better.

Your response also precludes the idea that a given player may want to use different weapons at different times. Some people find using one weapon all the time to be boring.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 19 November 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[Mcgral18]

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

Not sure if you're aware of this, but this is a team game. So if one guy has PPCs and another guy has LRMs, the PPC guy nullifying say a Hellbringer's ECM will benefit the LRM firing his own weapons at said target.



If you can't direct all the damage from a UAC to one location you need to aim better.

LOL
Again, it's like LRMs
The Opponent decides how effective cACs are
You know they're burst, right? They fire individual shells totalling their listed damage?
Yeah, if they twist, you get spread
Which inflates damage wonderfully


As for helping Lurm boats with ECM cover, here's a titbit of advice:
KILL the ECM carrier, and he is no longer an issue for the entire match
Use PPCs if you want, but don't do 10 and 10 damage, do 20 damage where it hurts. Remove that ECM component, and it no longer becomes an issue.

[KoalaBrownie]

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

LOL
Again, it's like LRMs
The Opponent decides how effective cACs are

No opponent I flank decides how effective my UAC is.

Mcgral18, on 19 November 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

As for helping Lurm boats with ECM cover, here's a titbit of advice:
KILL the ECM carrier, and he is no longer an issue for the entire match
Use PPCs if you want, but don't do 10 and 10 damage, do 20 damage where it hurts. Remove that ECM component, and it no longer becomes an issue.

Are you still trying to argue that PPCs didn't get buffed? Not sure where you're going with that dude.

[Zergling]

I believe Mcgral is arguing that the PPC buff was so minor as to be worthless.