71 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

I dont know what you mean by loyalty omnipods, but the initial summoner variants have anemic quirks that simply cannot annd do not compensate for the massive tonnage difference. Im looking at the summoner prime in the store now, its got quirks like -15% energy cooldown (for a erppc), -20% energy heat, -20% ballistic cooldown, and some meaningless missile/lbx quirks. None of that compensates for the ability to run way more weapons or heatsinks, especially since you cant use all 3 weapon slots without dropping armor or using something useless like 1 ER ML. Yea, sure, you can run a 2x ER PPC summoner (not that ER PPCs are good), or you can do the same thing with a EBJ/Timberwolf and have backup weapons and run cooler to boot.

I love going up against summoners, because they dont have the firepower to hurt me at all. Even my warhawk with 4x med pulse lasers/LRMs can take out a summoner in a brawl (let alone my brawling heavies). Meanwhile, a linebacker stands a pretty good chance of killing me.

They are not popular for a reason, you see people bring good mechs all the time in higher tiers, faction play, the group queue, etc, because they are good and actually work. You see people bring junk mechs a lot less often in higher tiers.

Most of the summoner configs are 2x large pulse/er-pccs or replacing one energy weapon with an autocanon. Even mediums easily pack more firepower than that and putting something like a UAC 20 on a summoner is dumb because you are just asking for it to get disabled/destroyed.

The most effective summoner configs ive tried have been the SRM/Streak boat ones, but streak boats all suffer from the same flaws (sandblasting armor doesn't hurt anything except lights) and the SRM boat runs very hot and has major convergence issues due to arm mounted launchers. The vulture also does both much better.

With only 20.7 tons of pod space after maxing out armor, the summoner needs to rely on low tonnage builds, which it cant because it doesnt have the hardpoints to boat things like small pulse AND SRMs. Trying to put high tonnage weapons on a chassis with low tonnage generally requires a lot of sacrifices (think AC20 raven, etc).

[FupDup]

Jun Watarase, on 18 November 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

I dont know what you mean by loyalty omnipods...

They give the Thor an energy hardpoint in each side torso. On a mech that was starved for both tonnage and hardpoints, this is kind of a big deal.

Ironically, though, most of the builds using these new pods are just 2 ERPPC, meaning that "low hardpoint quantity" still applies.

[Andi Nagasia]

Jun Watarase, on 18 November 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

I dont know what you mean by loyalty omnipods, but the initial summoner variants have anemic quirks that simply cannot annd do not compensate for the massive tonnage difference. Im looking at the summoner prime in the store now, its got quirks like -15% energy cooldown (for a erppc), -20% energy heat, -20% ballistic cooldown, and some meaningless missile/lbx quirks. None of that compensates for the ability to run way more weapons or heatsinks, especially since you cant use all 3 weapon slots without dropping armor or using something useless like 1 ER ML. Yea, sure, you can run a 2x ER PPC summoner (not that ER PPCs are good), or you can do the same thing with a EBJ/Timberwolf and have backup weapons and run cooler to boot.

um i would call -20% Energy Pretty Substantial,
running PPCs or LPLs, with a SMN-D(1LPL 1MPL) in each arm, you can lay down fire continuously,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 November 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 18 November 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:

They give the Thor an energy hardpoint in each side torso. On a mech that was starved for both tonnage and hardpoints, this is kind of a big deal.

Ironically, though, most of the builds using these new pods are just 2 ERPPC, meaning that "low hardpoint quantity" still applies.

I mean, most of the best builds don't run more than four weapons anyway.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 November 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

I mean, most of the best builds don't run more than four weapons anyway.

Well, I guess that at least people have the option to run moar lazors if they want it, even if it's not optimal. The Thor was sorely lacking the ability to build anything that didn't involve Goose, ERPeeps, or [S]SRMs.

[Mole]

I have played through all of my light 'mechs since the rescale. They aren't quite as good as they used to be but they're still good. Only one I even needed to change the build on was my Jenner IIC because the days of Jenners surviving knife fights are over. Had to put something on it that had a little more range so I could poke instead of charging.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 18 November 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Well, I guess that at least people have the option to run moar lazors if they want it, even if it's not optimal. The Thor was sorely lacking the ability to build anything that didn't involve Goose, ERPeeps, or [S]SRMs.

I dunno, that seems like pretty good variety to me. I don't know of a better Heavy for boating SRMs, they all lack either in armor or speed. Being able to pop-tart effectively, even before the (L) pods, is something few other 'Mechs could do and none of the alternatives were IS. And now that it has the (L) pods, it can do it even better and can also run laser vomit if it so chooses.

[Jun Watarase]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 November 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

um i would call -20% Energy Pretty Substantial,
running PPCs or LPLs, with a SMN-D(1LPL 1MPL) in each arm, you can lay down fire continuously,
Edit-

Yes -20% energy heat is pretty substantial...if you dont have to sacrifice a lot for it. So yea put -20% energy heat on something like the EBJ or timberwolf and it makes a huge differrence, apply it to the summoner with one or two energy hardpoints and its really meh. And the EBJ will still run 2x er PPC cooler.

I guess the extra side torso energy hardpoints help somewhat, but the summoner will always remain a sub optimal choice if other chassis can do the same (or nearly the same) thing, but better. And IMHO no chassis should have omni pods that are pretty much a "must have".

If they are going to limit the summoner to its pitifully small pod space, then they need to give it quirks so that it can still dish out damage like a 70 ton heavy.

[Y E O N N E]

Jun Watarase, on 18 November 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

And the EBJ will still run 2x er PPC cooler.

But it won't run them better, because it is stuck on the ground and has no velocity quirk. It's the complete package that counts.

And really, every 'Mech has "must-have" pods or variants. It sucks, but it's nothing new.

[Jun Watarase]

It depends on what you define as better. If you really want the JJs or velocity quirk, ok. But the EBJ has its own set of advantages, and more important since it can run more DHS, it runs a LOT cooler. But thats just hypothethical anyway, 2x erppcs is really low damage for a 70 tonner, especially when you cant even fire 3 alphas in a row without overheating (according to the calculations in li song's mechlab anyway).

[Gas Guzzler]

Jun Watarase, on 18 November 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

It depends on what you define as better. If you really want the JJs or velocity quirk, ok. But the EBJ has its own set of advantages, and more important since it can run more DHS, it runs a LOT cooler. But thats just hypothethical anyway, 2x erppcs is really low damage for a 70 tonner, especially when you cant even fire 3 alphas in a row without overheating (according to the calculations in li song's mechlab anyway).

Just FYI, the dual nipple PPC summoner with the 30% ER PPC velocity arm (along with heat gen and cooldown) is probably one of the best poptart mechs in the game. It can almost DPS with ER PPCs when you stack DHS. Its absolutely phenomenal.

Yeah you need to run it with the quirks. You can alpha MUCH more than 3 times. I'm not making this up, that mech is top tier, better than an EBJ for sure. Summoner is tankier too.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 November 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Tarogato, on 16 November 2016 - 10:08 PM, said:

Power draw has been temporarily canned.


My thoughts on the rescale are here, comprehensively covering every mech: https://www.reddit.c...n_mech_rescale/

Temporarily? Yup, I bet it is released at the same time as info warfare hahahahaha

ScarecrowES, on 17 November 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Now, if I wanted everyone to know my alt, I'd go around posting on THAT, wouldn't I? And c'mon... don't be "that guy." There's a special circle of hell designated especially for the guy who plays the stat card in entirely unrelated conversations. I'm sure you're better than that.

Yeah, because it is sooo important to have super secret alt accounts. Nice try...

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 November 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Just FYI, the dual nipple PPC summoner with the 30% ER PPC velocity arm (along with heat gen and cooldown) is probably one of the best poptart mechs in the game. It can almost DPS with ER PPCs when you stack DHS. Its absolutely phenomenal.

Yeah you need to run it with the quirks. You can alpha MUCH more than 3 times. I'm not making this up, that mech is top tier, better than an EBJ for sure. Summoner is tankier too.

Personally, I still don't think Heavies belong pop-tarting. We're always complaining about how useless lighter 'Mechs are and that we only take them because we have to, but that's exactly what happens when heavier classes can do everything better than Lighter classes. =/

[Mole]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 November 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Personally, I still don't think Heavies belong pop-tarting. We're always complaining about how useless lighter 'Mechs are and that we only take them because we have to, but that's exactly what happens when heavier classes can do everything better than Lighter classes. =/

I agree, I think poptarting should be more of a light mech and sometimes medium 'mech thing. Only thing heavier than that I'd like to see able to poptart effectively again is the Victor and possibly the Highlander since those two 'mechs really need that ability to be any good. Poptarting might not even be all that viable in a target as large as a Highlander of Victor any more since we are now living in the land of 40+ pinpoint damage alphas these days.

Hey guys.

Remember when a 30 damage alpha was actually really good? Ah, powercreep.

Edited by Mole, 18 November 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 November 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

Personally, I still don't think Heavies belong pop-tarting. We're always complaining about how useless lighter 'Mechs are and that we only take them because we have to, but that's exactly what happens when heavier classes can do everything better than Lighter classes. =/

Well the HBK-IIC is probably the better pure poptart. Its marginally faster, smaller, and has higher hardpoints that feel a little closer together. But... the Summoner can do it pretty well with the benefit of being able to sustain DPS better.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 November 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well the HBK-IIC is probably the better pure poptart. Its marginally faster, smaller, and has higher hardpoints that feel a little closer together. But... the Summoner can do it pretty well with the benefit of being able to sustain DPS better.

Oh I know, but I'm referring to the concept in general. We had that big thread on it, and I got busy to the point where I was too mentally exhausted to continue and it had dropped 4 pages before I was ready to pick it up again, but I don't even like that the NTG and TBR can do it. Heavies and assaults already have a monopoly on the push and the poke, why should they also get one on the 'tart? All we are doing is removing any natural performance-based reason to take lighter 'Mechs, instead requiring artificial rules to get people into them.

I don't like it. It plays right into balance by tonnage, something that doesn't apply to QP and shouldn't apply to FW and that PGI said they were not going to subscribe to at the outset of this game's production.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 November 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Well the HBK-IIC is probably the better pure poptart. Its marginally faster, smaller, and has higher hardpoints that feel a little closer together. But... the Summoner can do it pretty well with the benefit of being able to sustain DPS better.

Summoner does win on Agility and Tankability (at 20 tons cost)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 November 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

I don't know of a better Heavy for boating SRMs

Just be glad it doesn't have some of its future pods, having 3M side torsos would handily make it the best splat Clan heavy (and yes, there is TWO capable of that, just like I believe there is one with a CT energy mount as well).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 November 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 November 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

Just be glad it doesn't have some of its future pods, having 3M side torsos would handily make it the best splat Clan heavy (and yes, there is one capable of that, just like I believe there is one with a CT energy mount as well).

Just more Clan Exceptionalism.

Meh.

Pretty much exactly displays what I meant when I said "Mary Sue" machines in that other thread.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 18 November 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Mcgral18, on 18 November 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

Summoner does win on Agility and Tankability (at 20 tons cost)

SMN is certainly harder to finish off than the Hunchy. It can twist off alot of damage with those big arm hitboxes. Hunchy2C's melt when they take damage.

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 18 November 2016 - 01:07 PM.