35 replies to this topic

[NighthawK1337]

I don't own an Archer, and I don't see them quite often in the meta, whenever I do though I feel bad when I see them sneaking around with their SRM builds but notice them too fast because their Missile Bay Doors are open. Seriously those things look like rabbit ears that went through a taffy puller, the cockpit is low mounted and Archer pilots probably don't notice that their bay doors are giving them away. Correct me if I'm wrong but shooting at the doors also does damage to STs right? so its double jeopardy for the poor archer. My suggestion is that they split the difference, literally, make it that half the doors open downward instead of up. There's basis from previous works too. What do you guys think?

[Bud Crue]

I think the chances of PGI doing a remodel to the Archer, just to make the doors more aesthetically pleasing and/or functional, is about the same as them fixing the tube count on the Victors, or moving the shovel lasers on the Cataphracts to the sides or top of the arms.

So the chances are so close to zero as to be indistinguishable from it.

[El Bandito]

NighthawK1337, on 18 November 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

I don't own an Archer, and I don't see them quite often in the meta, whenever I do though I feel bad when I see them sneaking around with their SRM builds but notice them too fast because their Missile Bay Doors are open. Seriously those things look like rabbit ears that went through a taffy puller, the cockpit is low mounted and Archer pilots probably don't notice that their bay doors are giving them away.

Which is made worse by the fact that Archers have super low mounted cockpit. It is impossible to crest a ridge or to get one's own locks while hill humping, without the enemy taking the first shot.
PGI had ****** up the entire chassis from the get go, and Archer is now regarded by many as one of the bottom ranking Heavies, along with the Dragon.

Edited by El Bandito, 18 November 2016 - 04:53 AM.

[Burke IV]

What they did to the archers cockpit was stupid. There was no reason for that, the cockpit was always up top, just like the toys, just like the other pictures on sarna. If the archer had it cockpit up top it would have been able to do anything the maddog can instead of being gimped with gonzos nose.

This was pretty much the deciding factor in why i didnt buy the archer.

Edited by Burke IV, 18 November 2016 - 04:26 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@NighthawK1337
yes the Missile bay doors give away the archers position,
however they dont have hit boxes and dont take damage, as such they dont endanger the STs,

Spoiler

also the reason the missile doors open up?
could be like the Stalker Art which shows the doors opening down,
Some Archer Art shows the Bay Doors opening up,

@Burke IV
the Archers Cockpit location was always in the middle for the Torso, as per FASA Artwork,

Spoiler

Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 November 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[Burke IV]

Andi the only true archer is the first picture you posted in response to nighthawk, the picture, from memory, is either from the original btech manual or the mercinarys handbook and not whatever sarna says. Its also the model of the toy, and the model of whatever the archer was before it was the archer, notice the third weapon door on its nose? there are guns under there, no room for a pilot. Looking at the top picture you can see that the slant of the archers nose is closer to the shape of the hellbringer model and personally i think they ought to just remodel the mech.

What ever weak lore reasons can be given, it was a plain dumb idea to do that to the archer.

Edit: http://vignette1.wik...=20110326034129

Even the "flat face" archer is an improvement over what we have imo

Edited by Burke IV, 18 November 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Burke IV, on 18 November 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

Andi the only true archer is the first picture you posted in response to nighthawk, the picture, from memory, is either from the original btech manual or the mercinarys handbook and not whatever sarna says. Its also the model of the toy, and the model of whatever the archer was before it was the archer, notice the third weapon door on its nose? there are guns under there, no room for a pilot. Looking at the top picture you can see that the slant of the archers nose is closer to the shape of the hellbringer model and personally i think they ought to just remodel the mech.

What ever weak lore reasons can be given, it was a plain dumb idea to do that to the archer.

Edit: http://vignette1.wik...=20110326034129

Even the "flat face" archer is an improvement over what we have imo

Lets not forget:


I love BT and MW lore and crap but this is an FPS and the mech above makes more sense in this environment than one with a crotch level cockpit (no pun intended). The fact that one could argue it is "lore" given the context of it being on the cover of one off the games, makes it even more of a shame that they went with the lower position.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Burke IV
Please check the link you Posted?
(http://vignette1.wik...=20110326034129)
(http://vignette1.wik...ch/images/e/e6/Spartan.png/revision/latest?cb=20110326034129)

the word Spartan has Relevance here,

FASA Made Note to say the Archer Cockpit is in the Center, to distinguish if from the Spartan Destroid,
this was to Prevent Lawsuit from HarmonyGold who held NorthAmerican DistributionRights to Macross(RoboTech),
as such the Archers Cockpit is in the Center of the Cockpit as per BattleTech Lore, so thats where it should stay,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 November 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[Burke IV]

I didnt know FASA had commented. Both the spartan and the reseen archers would be more suited to this game, imo.

Edited by Burke IV, 20 August 2017 - 07:57 PM.

[GreenHell]

I know I've gotten the "Damage Glow" from being shot in the "ears". I've heard everyone say they don't have hitboxes, but I know what I've seen. Maybe you just don't take damage from it but it still sets off the damage glow? I dunno...

-EDIT-
If PGI ever deigns to redo the doors on the Archer, I'd like to see a double joint so that you can fold the ears back over top of the shoulders and NOT have the "bunny ears" problem while still clearing the front area for missiles so they don't clip through your own mech.

Edited by GreenHell, 18 November 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Missile bay doors have always been a terrible idea in practice unfortunately. I mean, in closed beta, looking at a catapult open the doors to fire looked cool, but in practice nobody liked the firing delay. They went with the compromise option of allowing players to keep it open, which created another set of issues.

[Sopistan]

Or they could stay open on a more horizontal way, like in the pictures from BT, not vertically like we have now

[Y E O N N E]

Jun Watarase, on 18 November 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Missile bay doors have always been a terrible idea in practice unfortunately. I mean, in closed beta, looking at a catapult open the doors to fire looked cool, but in practice nobody liked the firing delay. They went with the compromise option of allowing players to keep it open, which created another set of issues.

And yet, on the King Crab, there is zero delay for firing your cannons from closed claws.

They could have done that for missile doors.

[Barantor]

You don't see a whole lot of Catapults either, it isn't because of the bay doors but because it is a mostly missile mech and favors having LRMs on a majority of the variants.

With the LRM buffs this last patch we might see a few more, but I doubt it is going to be a 'great awakening' and definitely not another LRMpocalypse.

I've taken my Archers and Founders Catapult out some this last week, there are definitely a lot more folks throwing out Narcs.

As far as the bay doors though, lots of folks open them then forget they are like a big flagpole on top of their mech.. gotta close em if you want to be sneaky.

[Jun Watarase]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 November 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

And yet, on the King Crab, there is zero delay for firing your cannons from closed claws.

They could have done that for missile doors.

They put in the effort to animate and code the missiel bay doors to look cool, they werent going to throw that away. Not sure how the king crab works, but there would be a lot of complaints if the missiles flew through the (still closed) doors.

Its a shame because the reason why i swapped my founder's catapult for the atlas was because PGI said they had no idea if they were going to change the firing delay due to the missile bay doors, and now im stuck with an atlas that i dont use.

[Jackal Noble]

Against the grain, i enjoy the hell out of my archers when i run them and think they are fine as is

Edited by JackalBeast, 18 November 2016 - 10:14 AM.

[Barantor]

JackalBeast, on 18 November 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Against the grain, i enjoy the hell out of my archers when i run them.

I like them in spite of them. Catapults, Archers, Awesomes and Cicadas are some of my favorites. Lots of hours in them.

[Felbombling]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 November 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

@NighthawK1337
yes the Missile bay doors give away the archers position,
however they dont have hit boxes and dont take damage, as such they dont endanger the STs,

Spoiler

also the reason the missile doors open up?
could be like the Stalker Art which shows the doors opening down,
Some Archer Art shows the Bay Doors opening up,

@Burke IV
the Archers Cockpit location was always in the middle for the Torso, as per FASA Artwork,

Spoiler

Edit-

Andi, I'm going to do this with as much respect as I can muster...

You and your team are professional game designers. Was there no point during the design process where anyone at PGI came to the conclusion that sticking that close to the concept art of a table top game would have a negative impact in a computer simulation environment? Missile doors and cockpit height matter not one iota in the table top game, but they have a huge impact in the computer simulation environment, and you and the team should have known that from your past experience with Mechs like the Catapult.

Everything the OP said is on the money. The doors give the chassis away, and the low slung cockpit makes the problem worse for the player when it comes to the cockpit view and situational awareness.

I am very sorry, but what I see here is a lack of forethought and creative licence to avoid the problems. I paid good money for my Archers, and I think they're not even on my favorites list. They're just collecting dust... the two I didn't sell off.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 18 November 2016 - 11:29 AM.

[Mole]

God I wish people would stop saying that the Archer's cockpit was always high in lore. It wasn't. It always had crotch cockpit.

[Burke IV]

StaggerCheck, on 18 November 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

Everything the OP said is on the money. The doors give the chassis away, and the low slung cockpit makes the problem worse for the player when it comes to the cockpit view and situational awareness.

Every time i see one of these poor sad things they are standing out in the open alone... cause they cant see over hills and nobody gonna lock for them.... shooting lrm 5s and waving two little flags - kill me kill me