284 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

PhoenixFire55, on 26 November 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Hiding all game long in your assault only to claim 2-3 easy kills in the end. Like that time you were in a fully fresh EXE with SPLs on Canyons at 9:9 score only to overheat in front of my KDK to end up with 1 kill and whooping 150 damage.

1. I rarely ever play Assaults. (Eg. only 8 matches in Assaults this season to date.)
2. I don't ever hide and claim kills at the end of matches. I despise those who.
3. I haven't played in an EXE for months. They aren't even levelled.

Therefore:

4. The incident you refer to clearly wasn't me.

PhoenixFire55, on 26 November 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Nobody cares about your KDR, if you have a high KDR with a low W/L it tells everyone all they need to know about you really. But as you don't have any legit arguments left, sure bring up KDR some more plz.

I only mentioned KDR because, as I explained, it seemed an anomalous difference between my stats and the person I was talking to's stats.

So stop trying making allegations about e-peening when the conversation I was having - with someone else - was specifically about looking at and understanding an interesting difference in stats.

Edited by Appogee, 26 November 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[Appogee]

Back to the main topic of the thread...

Here was my last match... My 9th loss out of 12 matches today. It had the familiar composition of 3 players who did reasonable damage, and about half a team that couldn't even do 100 damage.



I just don't see how anyone can carry teams like this, repeatedly, to personally create a higher win:loss ratio.

[Appogee]

Next match, fail to carry 6 more. Now running at 10 losses out of 13 matches.



Yeah, I know, two matches in an unElited Viper in which I get 3 of the teams only 4 kills, 2 of those 3 being solo kills, and top damage - but fail to carry to the team to victory - prove nothing.

But they do I think demonstrate how someone can be playing fairly well, in non-meta Mechs, yet still be personally unable to turn around a loss into a victory, due to half the team contributing so little damage.

Edited by Appogee, 26 November 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Appogee, on 26 November 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

I just don't see how anyone can carry teams like this, repeatedly, to personally create a higher win:loss ratio.

You arent supposed to in any realistic scenario. If i take that comment at 100% face value, you are being unrealistic and illogical. You can set rules as how to properly lose. Play with a group if you want a boring, sterile environment, where everyone does his share the way you want to.

Im not sure i understand what you want and im not gona read previous pages. Do you want to win all the times or lose with pre determined values such as minimum damage with minimum kills for everyone? Do you seriously think that because you are good you should win more or that if everyone in the match is as good as you, you will win more or the loss with be better?

A side will lose, sometimes harder than other times. Yesterday i had a loss where we didnt get one kill and later i had win where they didnt get one kill and i also got a win where i was the only dead on my team because my Cyclop got mostly disarmed and i just went in anyways. You give some, you get some. Stop focusing on the loss, scream at people doing dumb things but only once, dont wail on them. im a big fan of sarcasm when it come to my teammates "yeah lets have heavies chase a light" is something i said yesterday, that was enough to get a message out and some steam out. A better man than me used voip after to tell them, in a socially acceptable manner, not to do that and that the light would not wait for them to get shot.

You should also know by now that any noob can find himself versus a bunch of good players who happens to be in-sync for no particular reason that match. Its worse for them than it is for you, they didnt get to learn anything out of that loss. Maybe you got all the clowns on the same team, who knows, im known to do stupid **** to get away from the deja-vu that is every freakin match.

[Rift Hawk]

Worst thing PGI did was implement stats into this game. Now we can all sit around and worry about what our W:L rate is. I understand it can be frustrating to lose. I lost something stupid like 7 in a row last night. I just quit and played something else.

Edited by Imperial X, 26 November 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[meteorol]

Appogee, on 26 November 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

In overview, you believe your personal performance was the key determinant in your high win:loss ratios. Or put another way, you single-handedly turn the tide of battle when you are dropped with poor teams, and cause the poor team to win. Even when you're not in a levelled meta Mech.

Appogee, on 26 November 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

I just don't see how anyone can carry teams like this, repeatedly, to personally create a higher win:loss ratio.

The thing is... no one has to carry those teams all the time. People love to claim they are "always" getting the bad teams, but that is statistically very unlikely. But in soloqueue, you will most likely end up in three different possible scenarios.

• Your team plays well enough to win the match irregardless of your performance
  
• Your team is so bad they will lose irregardless of your performace
  
• Teams are about even, and you can tip the scale in either way with your performance.

If you are playing good enough to frequently influence the third scenario to your favor, your w/l will increase. If looking at a large enough samplesize, i don't think "i'm always getting bad teams" is statistically likely enough to keep your w/l down if you are performing well enough in "fair" matches.

[Lyoto Machida]

Imperial X, on 26 November 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Worst thing PGI did was implement stats into this game. Now we can all sit around and worry about what our W:L rate is. I understand it can be frustrating to lose. I lost something stupid like 7 in a row last night. I just quit and played something else.

We need more stats, not less.

Why exactly are solo, group and CW stats all rolled into one?

[Y E O N N E]

Lyoto Machida, on 26 November 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

We need more stats, not less.

Why exactly are solo, group and CW stats all rolled into one?

We don't technically need to see any of our stats. Only PGI needs to know them.

Though I will say the current level of transparancy does help to call out some BS, especially when it comes to arguing why you can't balance from the bottom.

[Appogee]

DAYLEET, on 26 November 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

Im not sure i understand what you want and im not gona read previous pages.

Well, the point we were discussing was...

I think that getting persistently dropped in teams where half the players do sub-100 damage, while I'm trying to level Mechs, makes it harder for me to get a good win:loss ratio, which in turn leads to worse stats.

Others believe that they get a good win:loss ratio regardless of their teams, regardless of whether they are in a 'meta Mech' because they can personally turn around losses into wins.

The screenshots I posted above were just my most two recent matches. I couldn't personally turn them into wins despite what I think was a pretty decent performance.

The broader context is: I've dropped on 12 out of 15 losing teams today. Will this average out at some point? I sure as hell hope so. But I note in the first few seasons of the leaderboard my win:loss was less than 1 ... despite my average match score being (from memory) 250 or higher and my kill:death being (from memory) 1.5 or higher. So nothing really averaged itself out in those months.

I sure would like to see the solo and group stats separated out. If someone is getting really high stats while only in the PUG queue, they must be a really good player. Or lucky. Or both.

Edited by Appogee, 26 November 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

Good times tonight here as well... not quite homogeneous Tier 1 games.



Too bad my screen was too slow to show the line above where he rants that he got all the **** players on his team... says the guy ranked 32723 in average match score.

[DAYLEET]

Imperial X, on 26 November 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Worst thing PGI did was implement stats into this game. Now we can all sit around and worry about what our W:L rate is. I understand it can be frustrating to lose. I lost something stupid like 7 in a row last night. I just quit and played something else.

You think the bad part of a losing streak if a number on a website?

[Lyoto Machida]

Duke Nedo, on 26 November 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Good times tonight here as well... not quite homogeneous Tier 1 games.



Too bad my screen was too slow to show the line above where he rants that he got all the **** players on his team... says the guy ranked 32723 in average match score.

Guy having a rough time in trial mechs in his alt account?

[Deathlike]

meteorol, on 25 November 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

If only playing MWO in small (especially with only 2 guys) groups wouldn't one of the most torturous things i have ever encountered playing online. Sadly, most of my buddies had to stop playing due to IRL schedule... We usually don't get more than 2 guys online at a time.

We usually decide against playing MWO at all instead of going to the groupqueue with just 2ppl. It's just so painful. Shoutout to all those 4 mans using like 1/3 of their available tonnage. Especially those guys dropping with 2 locusts, a spider and a hunchback (think it was a HBK, could be mistaken), ending on our team 5 times in a row, scoring ~32 dmg per person. Thanks guys, you lost your teams 5 matches in a row the moment you clicked on the search button.

The few times i played in groupqueue the last few months massively crushed my stats across the board and always made me take a MWO break.

Well, the problem with 2-mans is that every player has to hold their own weight consistently... and 2-man EmP groups are probably going to hold their end of the bargain than any 2 random players. Of course, that highlights the inevitable problem with 2-man groups when you're not that good (especially if you're trying to help a friend out). Then again, PGI doesn't really understand this part of the telemetry...

Appogee, on 26 November 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Well, the point we were discussing was...

I think that getting persistently dropped in teams where half the players do sub-100 damage, while I'm trying to level Mechs, makes it harder for me to get a good win:loss ratio, which in turn leads to worse stats.

Others believe that they get a good win:loss ratio regardless of their teams, regardless of whether they are in a 'meta Mech' because they can personally turn around losses into wins.

The screenshots I posted above were just my most two recent matches. I couldn't personally turn them into wins despite what I think was a pretty decent performance.

The broader context is: I've dropped on 12 out of 15 losing teams today. Will this average out at some point? I sure as hell hope so. But I note in the first few seasons of the leaderboard my win:loss was less than 1 ... despite my average match score being (from memory) 250 or higher and my kill:death being (from memory) 1.5 or higher. So nothing really averaged itself out in those months.

I sure would like to see the solo and group stats separated out. If someone is getting really high stats while only in the PUG queue, they must be a really good player. Or lucky. Or both.

There's is a skill level that you have to reach before you win more of the games than lose... whether you are at that level is another matter.

If you are skilled, then you're going to do more than the average potato... and expose a lot of opposing potatoes in the process. It's the nature of the best.

When you feel like the MM is screwing you over (and technically, it will in the sense that it cannot distinguish my scrubby arse to an EmP player due to how PSR works), it's probably because you aren't the difference maker. Whether it be drop calling or just even doing a little semblance of PUG herding... you can make a difference if you worked at it. Then again, you have to accept that if you like to run bad builds (something LRM heavy as an example)... you can't regularly expect to win consistently if you are totally reliant on your teammates to be "reliable". I mean, you could use a bad build, but you have seriously carry... and not a lot of people are "that guy" that can do it.

The problem is that the solo queue doesn't train a player/potato the consistent way to win... so your definition of success may not be the same as EmP's, let alone the random potatoes that the MM assigned to you. This is why some players never evolve beyond unicorn status in MWO.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 November 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Appogee, on 26 November 2016 - 09:57 AM, said:

Back to the main topic of the thread...

Here was my last match... My 9th loss out of 12 matches today. It had the familiar composition of 3 players who did reasonable damage, and about half a team that couldn't even do 100 damage.



I just don't see how anyone can carry teams like this, repeatedly, to personally create a higher win:loss ratio.

Honest answer:
KDK3 and Red Potatos


You'll have a hard time carrying in any light that's not a God Quirk Cheetah (...I remember getting 1300 something damage, only to die to crimson red CT Mr Gargles in a suicide LOLpha...RAGE), and the viper is a Pseudo Light

The realities are, you need something with sustainability to carry, and almost universally, Lights do not have sustainable damage. They cannot core 4 mechs in a row, like a Kodiak can.
They cannot take more than 2 hits to a component, like a Kodiak can


In the end, you need 3 things for a Carry. A skill deficiency on the Red team (Red Potatos), a big enough Robot (many Heavies can also apply, but Dakka/Gauss PPC KDK3 being the gold standard), and enough skill of your own

Allies having damaged mechs should probably be mentioned as well
Things Lights (or Vipers) cannot reliably do. At least, not short ranged Lights.
Kiting is a thing, but only if the Reds are also range deficient.

[CIag]

Here is a video of that match in duke image https://www.twitch.t...ss_/v/103591140
5-6 minute of just standing around and I had to do a ninja move with a hunchie.

[Zergling]

meteorol, on 26 November 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

The thing is... no one has to carry those teams all the time. People love to claim they are "always" getting the bad teams, but that is statistically very unlikely. But in soloqueue, you will most likely end up in three different possible scenarios.

• Your team plays well enough to win the match irregardless of your performance
  
• Your team is so bad they will lose irregardless of your performace
  
• Teams are about even, and you can tip the scale in either way with your performance.

If you are playing good enough to frequently influence the third scenario to your favor, your w/l will increase. If looking at a large enough samplesize, i don't think "i'm always getting bad teams" is statistically likely enough to keep your w/l down if you are performing well enough in "fair" matches.

Pretty much this, and it is worth noting that over a large number of battles, #2 is evened out by #1.

Everyone has bad days where they just lose a ton of battles because matchmaker lumped them with potatoes for teammates, but over the long run that doesn't matter, because those have as much chance of occurring as battles where players are carried to victory.
People just remember the loses more, because of how the human mind works.

Over the long run, the only influence on player winrate are battles of #3 type, and those battles are not so rare that W/L over 2.0 cannot be achieved and sustained by players of high skill level.

Edited by Zergling, 26 November 2016 - 07:47 PM.

[Ghogiel]

for all the sub 200dmg mechwarriors who talk **** and blame others for their **** stats.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

last Match in Polar, Im = 0 Dmg ...
a crab Whining -thats not my map ,im for canyon ....have no radar Depriv. ...me me me -Answer-"Your Problem ,you not ready for any Map !no whine fight "...crab falling back from the Group -"go fight with the Group!" crab falling further back -..."Move you A**,or go back to Mommy!" -answer from the Crab :"Im dont like you!" ...and...3 Salves Pulse Lasers in my Cataphract Back-report for teamkill

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 27 November 2016 - 04:06 AM.

[Zergling]

Zergling, on 26 November 2016 - 03:57 AM, said:

And my stats in the Season 5 assault leaderboard have gone up even higher since I played another 7 battles in my Nanuq:


Will those stats remain at that level or increase further? I don't know; they might very well decrease.

But I will be surprised if I drop below 1.50 W/L and 500 damage/battle in my next 10 battles; that would require me to win less than 4 of those 10 battles and do less than 394 damage/battle for those 10 battles.

The losses would certainly be possible if I get a bad losing streak in the matchmaker (everyone gets shafted by the matchmaker here and there), but it is unlikely my damage/battle would drop that low.

Played another 10 battles today in my Warhawk Nanuq:



On the 5th battle I had a lag spike of 1500ms. Naturally, I died while doing very little damage.

On the 6th battle my internet died completely, disconnecting me from the game and resulting in zero damage done. Strangely, that battle didn't count to my win or loss statistics, but did count to total battles played and damage/battle.

The 7th battle my team just rolled over the enemy team before I could even reach them; I only did 197 damage with a single solo kill on a stray Kit Fox.
Then the last 3 battles were all losses; first two battles I did over 700 damage with multiple solo kills, while the last I did 445 with 0 kills and a single KMDD assist.

So for the 10 battles I played today, I won 5, lost 4 (plus 1 disconnect that didn't count to W/L), 12 kills, 6 deaths and 458 damage/battle (would have been around 550 damage/battle were it not for the internet problems, I'm really annoyed with how crap it has been today).


So yes, if a player maintains a decent level of performance, they will influence enough battles to produce a decent W/L ratio.
40 battles is enough of a sample to show that can be done, even in a non-meta mech with non-meta build.

If a player is consistently doing below 200 damage/battle, especially in assaults, their W/L ratio is likely to be terrible.
Such players have nothing but themselves to blame for their poor W/L; their poor performance is producing a net negative influence on the probability of their teams winning.

Edited by Zergling, 28 November 2016 - 01:21 AM.

[Trollfeed]

Mcgral18, on 26 November 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

Honest answer:
KDK3 and Red Potatos


You'll have a hard time carrying in any light that's not a God Quirk Cheetah (...I remember getting 1300 something damage, only to die to crimson red CT Mr Gargles in a suicide LOLpha...RAGE), and the viper is a Pseudo Light

The realities are, you need something with sustainability to carry, and almost universally, Lights do not have sustainable damage. They cannot core 4 mechs in a row, like a Kodiak can.
They cannot take more than 2 hits to a component, like a Kodiak can


In the end, you need 3 things for a Carry. A skill deficiency on the Red team (Red Potatos), a big enough Robot (many Heavies can also apply, but Dakka/Gauss PPC KDK3 being the gold standard), and enough skill of your own

Allies having damaged mechs should probably be mentioned as well
Things Lights (or Vipers) cannot reliably do. At least, not short ranged Lights.
Kiting is a thing, but only if the Reds are also range deficient.

So much truth in this. You need 2 bad teams and mech fitting for the situation if you want to carry. BTW, those new kit fox hero omnipods makes it quite exellent and it's now even better than arctic cheetah in my opinion.

Here's some bragging.





Most of both teams were useless cowards who just refused to engage. Except awesome, kodiak and atlas from enemy side and catapult, blackjack and me from our side. All those mentioned played properly even if doesn't show in the score while their team refused to support them. Our team even kept hiding when there were only 3 enemy mechs left.

Edited by Trollfeed, 28 November 2016 - 06:52 AM.