16 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Black Knight Re-Quirking


Whatever the opinion on the re-sizing of the Black Knight, it is clear that it was effectively a nerf. And not a small one. Combined with previous nerfs this leaves the Black Knight in a somewhat suboptimal condition, especially since he has to compete with Warhammers and Night Gyrs now.

I do not want to return to the overquirked state of the beginning of the year. I want lore-based, useful quirks.

• Converting structure quirks into armour quirks: The Black Knight is known to be an extremely resilient Mech in the lore. Even though part of the reputation is based on a Monty Python-reference, the Black Knight does live up to its reputation both in the lore and in TT-games. This buff is not extreme but it protects the offensive power of this Mech for a prolonged time in the match. I would even argue you could up the armour quirks a bit.
  
• Converting heat gen quirks into energy range quirks: the Black Knight is also known to be prone to overheating. Obviously one cannot and should not force anyone to use SHS, but one can and should remove the heat gen quirks. Instead, increased range could work as representation of the superior sensor suite of the Mech.
  
• BAP quirks: Another notable feature of the Mech is its BAP working in conjunction with the SL. This could be represented by simply buffing the BAP. Give me quicker read-outs and I am happy.

tl/dr: Give me a super tough energy boat that spots weaknesses in the enemy armour but overheats quickly.


Thoughts?

Edited by FLG 01, 23 November 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[L1f3H4ck]

I'm all for the BAP quirk

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...36a89f4805beb55

[Lyoto Machida]

FLG 01, on 23 November 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Black Knight Re-Quirking


Whatever the opinion on the re-sizing of the Black Knight, it is clear that it was effectively a nerf. And not a small one. Combined with previous nerfs this leaves the Black Knight in a somewhat suboptimal condition, especially since he has to compete with Warhammers and Night Gyrs now.

I do not want to return to the overquirked state of the beginning of the year. I want lore-based, useful quirks.

• Converting structure quirks into armour quirks: The Black Knight is known to be an extremely resilient Mech in the lore. Even though part of the reputation is based on a Monty Python-reference, the Black Knight does live up to its reputation both in the lore and in TT-games. This buff is not extreme but it protects the offensive power of this Mech for a prolonged time in the match. I would even argue you could up the armour quirks a bit.
  
• Converting heat gen quirks into energy range quirks: the Black Knight is also known to be prone to overheating. Obviously one cannot and should not force anyone to use SHS, but one can and should remove the heat gen quirks. Instead, increased range could work as representation of the superior sensor suite of the Mech.
  
• BAP quirks: Another notable feature of the Mech is its BAP working in conjunction with the SL. This could be represented by simply buffing the BAP. Give me quicker read-outs and I am happy.

tl/dr: Give me a super tough energy boat that spots weaknesses in the enemy armour but overheats quickly.



Thoughts?

Maybe in about two or three years...after the Victor gets restored, of course.

I like the ideas of the lore/fluff based quirks to differentiate mech identities and whatnot but PGI moves very slowly when it comes to adjusting pretty much anything.

If they actually remove Pinpoint or make it do something after MechCon, I'll be very mildly impressed.

[Y E O N N E]

The Black Knight overheats plenty quickly. Two shots is all you get with the meta builds of yore, then you get to twiddle thumbs.

In fact, this drawback is what drove its replacement by the Warhammer in competitive brawl-overwatch-type drop decks.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 November 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

The Black Knight overheats plenty quickly. Two shots is all you get with the meta builds of yore, then you get to twiddle thumbs.

In fact, this drawback is what drove its replacement by the Warhammer in competitive brawl-overwatch-type drop decks.

Not just that, but hardpoint location is FAR superior on the Whammy.

[FLG 01]

There are quite a number of reasons why the Warhammer is currently superior. Hardpoint location is probably what I struggle the most with, even after like 35h on the Black Knight.

And sure it overheats quickly. It is not that I would dislike heat gen quirks entirely, this os why I put that point in the middle. It is the least important one to me, because this has never been my greatest problem with the Mech. What is more important to me is taking damage better (in no small part because the hardpoints are so low) and protecting my internals, especially heatsinks (again, heat management).

Lastly I love the array of ML or MPL this Mech can mount, but doing this severly limits your effective range as you cannot mount many long range weapons then. This is why I want better range quirks to better use the ML&MPL. Of course you can supplement them with a stronger battery of long range weapons but that requires an XL engine - and everybody with half a brain will notice that as soon as seeing your armament, and blast your ST to pieces.

Edited by FLG 01, 23 November 2016 - 04:18 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Black Knight used to have more potent range quirks, but they got nerfed. Personally, I think they should have converted them back into split-style quirks, with a small general range buff and a larger MedLas-specific buff. But nope. Can't have isMedLas actually be good. Not allowed.

Black Knight is actually quite good with an XL. It is very narrow, and so it rolls damage extremely well and its arms can absorb a lot of punishment, too.

Boogie138, on 23 November 2016 - 04:02 PM, said:

Not just that, but hardpoint location is FAR superior on the Whammy.

True, but at the time of the WHM's introduction the Black Knight was still king of IS laser vomit. Even over the WHM-6R. It was very specifically the dakka-based builds that pushed out the Black Knight.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 November 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Black Knight used to have more potent range quirks, but they got nerfed. Personally, I think they should have converted them back into split-style quirks, with a small general range buff and a larger MedLas-specific buff. But nope. Can't have isMedLas actually be good. Not allowed.

Black Knight is actually quite good with an XL. It is very narrow, and so it rolls damage extremely well and its arms can absorb a lot of punishment, too.



True, but at the time of the WHM's introduction the Black Knight was still king of IS laser vomit. Even over the WHM-6R. It was very specifically the dakka-based builds that pushed out the Black Knight.

Even now, with the latest dakka nerfs, the WHMs with dakka seem to have taken a pretty solid hit. Timber/Night Gyr domination has grown.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 November 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Black Knight used to have more potent range quirks, but they got nerfed. Personally, I think they should have converted them back into split-style quirks, with a small general range buff and a larger MedLas-specific buff. But nope. Can't have isMedLas actually be good. Not allowed.

Black Knight is actually quite good with an XL. It is very narrow, and so it rolls damage extremely well and its arms can absorb a lot of punishment, too.



True, but at the time of the WHM's introduction the Black Knight was still king of IS laser vomit. Even over the WHM-6R. It was very specifically the dakka-based builds that pushed out the Black Knight.

BW is the Dakka boat, 6R only has 2 ballistic points.

But you are forgetting to mention all the nerfs that hit the BK, plus how massive it became. At this point I cannot think of a single reason to take a BK over a WHM-6D

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 November 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

Even now, with the latest dakka nerfs, the WHMs with dakka seem to have taken a pretty solid hit. Timber/Night Gyr domination has grown.

The WHM-6R is too hot, now, but the WHM-BW is pretty much unaffected. However. MRBC8 rules disallow Heroes (a stance I approve of, personally, since allowing Heroes was always contradictory to disallowing new 'Mechs as both are cash-only affairs).

I never expected the WHM to really last once the Night Gyr came out, though. The WHM runs at about the same speed, carries less guns, runs hotter, and can't jump.

Boogie138, on 23 November 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

BW is the Dakka boat, 6R only has 2 ballistic points.

But you are forgetting to mention all the nerfs that hit the BK, plus how massive it became. At this point I cannot think of a single reason to take a BK over a WHM-6D

I'm not forgetting the nerfs, rather I'm pointing out that at the time the WHM came out, the BK was still really powerful because it still had those quirks, and it was specifically the dakka WHM that pushed it out because the volley nature of lasers was inferior at overwatch duties.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 23 November 2016 - 04:37 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 November 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

The WHM-6R is too hot, now, but the WHM-BW is pretty much unaffected. However. MRBC8 rules disallow Heroes (a stance I approve of, personally, since allowing Heroes was always contradictory to disallowing new 'Mechs as both are cash-only affairs).

I never expected the WHM to really last once the Night Gyr came out, though. The WHM runs at about the same speed, carries less guns, runs hotter, and can't jump.

Well that's a shame... I guess they can just give the -6R a nice -20% ballistic heat gen quirk lol.

And yeah, just took out the BW, it is more or less unaffected, that -6R though... it makes me sad. That was a fun mech.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 November 2016 - 04:42 PM.

[Deathlike]

FLG 01, on 23 November 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Black Knight Re-Quirking


Whatever the opinion on the re-sizing of the Black Knight, it is clear that it was effectively a nerf. And not a small one. Combined with previous nerfs this leaves the Black Knight in a somewhat suboptimal condition, especially since he has to compete with Warhammers and Night Gyrs now.

I do not want to return to the overquirked state of the beginning of the year. I want lore-based, useful quirks.

• Converting structure quirks into armour quirks: The Black Knight is known to be an extremely resilient Mech in the lore. Even though part of the reputation is based on a Monty Python-reference, the Black Knight does live up to its reputation both in the lore and in TT-games. This buff is not extreme but it protects the offensive power of this Mech for a prolonged time in the match. I would even argue you could up the armour quirks a bit.
  
• Converting heat gen quirks into energy range quirks: the Black Knight is also known to be prone to overheating. Obviously one cannot and should not force anyone to use SHS, but one can and should remove the heat gen quirks. Instead, increased range could work as representation of the superior sensor suite of the Mech.
  
• BAP quirks: Another notable feature of the Mech is its BAP working in conjunction with the SL. This could be represented by simply buffing the BAP. Give me quicker read-outs and I am happy.

tl/dr: Give me a super tough energy boat that spots weaknesses in the enemy armour but overheats quickly.



Thoughts?

Before I even start.. the problem with the BK is mostly due to the upscaling, and quirk reduction it got. In essence, it got doubly nerfed (one from the balance overlord... the other... I don't even know/understand the logic of, not just our balance overlord).

Increasing range doesn't make a huge difference if your hardpoints are low. The Grasshopper-5P has range quirks, which actually make it useful. Low mounts requires quirks for better brawling... and heat gen is the necessary quirk.

I would like to see more armor quirks over structure quirks, but those are rarely given away in this game, so it is unlikely to change, but even then, the current set of structure quirks are not enough mostly due in part of the rescaling. It would've fared better w/o losing the structure reductions since the mech got bigger. Leave it to the people that claimed that increasing the mech's size doesn't mean it would affect it detrimentally.... see how Lights are diverse in primarily two chassis.

Adding BAP quirks doesn't make it interesting... see Mist Lynx with its hardlocked CAP. Worst chassis of the Lights and you give a poop about BAP quirks? Good luck with that.


TL;DR

lol no

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 November 2016 - 04:41 PM, said:

Well that's a shame... I guess they can just give the -6R a nice -20% ballistic heat gen quirk lol.

And yeah, just took out the BW, it is more or less unaffected, that -6R though... it makes me sad. That was a fun mech.

We can't have nice things in the Inner Sphere. Ever.

On a happier note, the new ER PPC heat tweak and the Thunderbolt 9S and 9SE are both actually rather appealing right now. You can reasonably fire off three ERPPC again in the 9S, you just need an XL this time.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The armor boosts would be nice, but replacing heat gen quirks with range would be a pretty bad nerf. Black Knight's hardpoints are already low, so it suffers in long ranged combat. It can work good as an energy brawling mech, but it needs good heat gen quirks.

The BAP boost seems mostly useless since there isn't really a good reason to bring BAP on the mech in the first place. It could get a shorter laser duration to give it improved targeting though, which would actually help out the whole energy brawling thing its good at though.

[FLG 01]

Well, I would be happy with shorter burn durations too, so thanks for coming up with that!

Dakota1000, on 23 November 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

The armor boosts would be nice, but replacing heat gen quirks with range would be a pretty bad nerf. Black Knight's hardpoints are already low, so it suffers in long ranged combat. It can work good as an energy brawling mech, but it needs good heat gen quirks.

Sorry, perhaps I need to clarify this. I am actually not aiming at long ranged combat. Obviously the low hardpoints preclude such action. The charme of the Black Knight is being able to mount a large number of MPL/ML. Increasing the range of those helps quite a bit as I have found myself very often in situations where I could have needed some extra 10% range on the MPL very well. More than I could have used a slightly cooler Mech.
As I have said before I would not mind heat gen quirks, I have just never found myself wanting them badly.

Dakota1000, on 23 November 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

The BAP boost seems mostly useless since there isn't really a good reason to bring BAP on the mech in the first place.

Good point. And good thing that you do not have to mount it since the Black Knight is no OmniMech and the BAP is no fixed equipment. I admit this is mostly a quirk for flavour, and probably not of much use, although it could be made interesting, e.g. by giving an instant paper doll.
Whether or not I would use it... I do not know yet.

Edited by FLG 01, 23 November 2016 - 07:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

So what you want is the BL-7-KNT-L before the nerfs? +20% energy range, -15% burn duration, -10% heat generated.

I'm okay with that. The chassis was in a very good place back then. It was the era of MWO where there was the largest variety of competitively viable 'Mechs.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 23 November 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm okay with that. The chassis was in a very good place back then. It was the era of MWO where there was the largest variety of competitively viable 'Mechs until the nerfbat.

Fixed for you.