23 replies to this topic

[Bombast]

I've come up with a simple way to give Inner Sphere Assault Class ballistic boats a chance against their Clan brethren, with only one simple change, no nerfs required.

Allow for critical location splitting.

Also #EquipableLongTomsOrIRiot

Seriously though, can we get crit splitting? There are some mechs that deserve AC/20s, or AC/20s that deserve XL Engines, but can't get them as the game is.

Edited by Bombast, 23 November 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[CK16]

Since when did IS daka become worse then Clan? I would take single shot slugs all day over these burst fire. BTW, by lore all the AC'swere burst fire. Not single slugs like what you have with the current IS UAC's and AC's. That is how you balance them, remove single shots, give the IS quicker ahorter burst but longer reloads.

[AphexTwin11]

KDK-3 is OP PGI plz nerf. Clan Dakka is OP PGI plz nerf.

[Lukoi Banacek]

IS AC are already pretty potent due to PP dynamic.

If I could put IS AC or UAC on my Clan mechs, I most certainly would.

Now a quirk for a couple of mechs to allow crit splitting to add flavor to some under utilized chassis might be worth a look, but a universal application seems unneccesary from a balancing perspective tbh.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

BTW, by lore all the AC'swere burst fire. Not single slugs like what you have with the current IS UAC's and AC's.

You are correct, but that would make ACs really bland once we get all the families (Standard, Light, Hyper Velocity, Ultra, Rotary, LB, Proto).

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Since when did IS daka become worse then Clan?

It was when you could mount 4 UAC10s on a 100 assault and ghost heat wasn't high enough to stop you from dealing 80 damage twice in a row like the old Space Whale. The volume of damage allowed you to overcome the disadvantages, at least prior to all these nerfs (that were kinda necessary).

[El Bandito]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Since when did IS daka become worse then Clan?

Since when Clan mechs with their single ST death proof XL engine can mount dual CUAC10s with two slots to spare, while IS mechs can't even equip dual CUAC5s without equipping Standard engine? More specifically, since when Clans got battlemechs that can take advantage of full customization without restrictions, on top of superior Clan tech? Damage is but one metric, one must also look at equipping costs.

Even post CUAC nerf, I am not convinced that CUAC10 for example, is definitely worse than IS AC10, if mounted on IS mechs. I know my Atlas-D/DC would love it.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 November 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Dogstar]

Filthy clanners claiming that pin point IS AC damage is a sufficient balancing factor against lighter, smaller, better, double damage clan UACs is a bloody cheek.

PP damage is overrated, especially by clanners. ACs should be balanced based on weight, heat, and damage like every other weapon.

Edited by Dogstar, 23 November 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[CK16]

El Bandito, on 23 November 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

Since when Clan mechs with their single ST death proof XL engine can mount dual CUAC10s with two slots to spare, while IS mechs can't even equip dual CUAC5s without equipping Standard engine? More specifically, since when Clans got battlemechs that can take advantage of full customization without restrictions, on top of superior Clan tech? Damage is but one metric, one must also look at equipping costs.

Even post CUAC nerf, I am not convinced that CUAC10 for example, is definitely worse than IS AC10, if mounted on IS mechs. I know my Atlas-D/DC would love it.

Wpuld you still take them over when IS gets their UAC 2,10, and 20's? Those I hope to God if PGI adds them, get a burst effect. Those as single shots like a. UAC 5 would break alot of things....You guys think quad Clan UAC 10's are bad....imagine that damage but only in 8 shots not 24....

[FLG 01]

Sorry but this Clan vs IS dakka debate detracts a bit from the issue of crit splitting - which totally should be a thing.

[Rift Hawk]

FLG 01, on 23 November 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

Sorry but this Clan vs IS dakka debate detracts a bit from the issue of crit splitting - which totally should be a thing.

No...it really shouldn't be a thing. The over usage of autocannon spam is already out of hand. There is NO need to make it worse.

[El Bandito]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Wpuld you still take them over when IS gets their UAC 2,10, and 20's? Those I hope to God if PGI adds them, get a burst effect. Those as single shots like a. UAC 5 would break alot of things....You guys think quad Clan UAC 10's are bad....imagine that damage but only in 8 shots not 24....

PGI said there would be no future tech anytime soon, if ever. And there is no mech in current IS line up that can equip quad UAC10 due to its size and weight restriction. Even if a mech can do it in the future, such as the Annihilator, quad IS UAC10 costs 52 tons, which leaves very little room (either in weight or in space) for adequate ammo. Not to mention IS UAC10 has 25% more heat than CUAC10, making sustained fire that much difficult.

I have no issue with making IS UAC10 burst fire, BTW. For now, stay in the present--and in the present, the Clans clearly have the edge in dakka.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 November 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Rift Hawk]

El Bandito, on 23 November 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

PGI said there would be no future tech anytime soon, if ever. And there is no mech in current IS line up that can equip quad UAC10. Even if a mech can do it in the future, such as the Annihilator, quad IS UAC10 costs 52 tons, which leaves very little room (either in weight or in space) for adequate ammo. Not to mention IS UAC10 has more heat than CUAC10, making sustained fire that much difficult.

I have no issue with making IS UAC10 burst fire, BTW.

Your Mech's mustache is supreme sir

[CK16]

El Bandito, on 23 November 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

PGI said there would be no future tech anytime soon, if ever. And there is no mech in current IS line up that can equip quad UAC10. Even if a mech can do it in the future, such as the Annihilator, quad IS UAC10 costs 52 tons, which leaves very little room (either in weight or in space) for adequate ammo. Not to mention IS UAC10 has 25% more heat than CUAC10, making sustained fire that much difficult.

I have no issue with making IS UAC10 burst fire, BTW. For now, stay on the present--and in the present, the Clans clearly have the edge in dakka.

Fair enough, still IS UAC 10/20 scare the **** out of me if done wrong, (personally have them go burst but like UAC 10 - 2 she'll burst, UAC 20 - 3 she'll burst.). But keep in mind, it seems to be difficult to nerf UAC boating, which is the problem! While not killing single UAC builds. As with all weapons usually the issue is not with the single weapon but boating them.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Fair enough, still IS UAC 10/20 scare the **** out of me if done wrong

That's because allowing a weapon to have double the (overall and burst) damage potential of another weapon with the only limiting factor being an RNG system that may increase the cooldown is a little absurd, which is why they shouldn't have double the damage potential. Just because they had it in lore doesn't mean it needs to carry over. That said, UAC20s aren't that scary given how disappointing regular AC20s are now and because of how much jam time would suck on them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 November 2016 - 12:37 PM.

[mogs01gt]

Its easy to balance
make every XL engine clan
allow IS and Clan to equip each other weapons
make DHS and SHS the same

done

[CK16]

mogs01gt, on 23 November 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

Its easy to balance
make every XL engine clan
allow IS and Clan to equip each other weapons
make DHS and SHS the same

done

This isn't MW4....

However, fixing IS XL does give me an idea....ok so when you lose a ST instead of death, you lose like %40 of your speed, heat penalties ect. They still need to have that inferior feel to the Clan counter part, but not cause instant death(this translated alright in TT but in a pin point FPS, yea....can see the issue.) So make the IS feel like they live but have that the engine is VERY damage feel.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

They still need to have that inferior feel to the Clan counter part

Then they will never be balanced, because inferior feeling is often because they actually are inferior, and your suggestion still doesn't change that fact. In other words quirks would still be used to mitigate tech base imbalance. Yeonne's idea that they get bonus structure on the sides is still the best, preferably enough structure that outside of crit damage, it should take the exact same damage to destroy a side as it does the CT. Then remove the damage transfer reduction for Clam XLs and potentially the other nerfs that got stacked on top of them and then you have much better parity.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 23 November 2016 - 01:00 PM.

[mogs01gt]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

This isn't MW4....

However, fixing IS XL does give me an idea....ok so when you lose a ST instead of death, you lose like %40 of your speed, heat penalties ect. They still need to have that inferior feel to the Clan counter part, but not cause instant death(this translated alright in TT but in a pin point FPS, yea....can see the issue.) So make the IS feel like they live but have that the engine is VERY damage feel.

that isnt balancing. That is handicapping.

Just stop the clan vs is ******** and balance the damn game!

[Andi Nagasia]

or (THIS) can be used, Note this also works for helping balance Is to Clan Missiles,
(Is / Clan, Tonnage / Crit, Balance Concept!)

[Y E O N N E]

CK16, on 23 November 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

Fair enough, still IS UAC 10/20 scare the **** out of me if done wrong, (personally have them go burst but like UAC 10 - 2 she'll burst, UAC 20 - 3 she'll burst.). But keep in mind, it seems to be difficult to nerf UAC boating, which is the problem! While not killing single UAC builds. As with all weapons usually the issue is not with the single weapon but boating them.

That's the kicker, though. The way IS tech is set up, they can't really boat ballistics larger than 5-class, and even 5-class require some of the heaviest 'Mechs in the game to boat with. Dual UAC/20 with 20-damage slugs wouldn't actually be that scary; it would be stupid hot, stupid heavy, and with stupid short-range while requiring the use of fragile XL engines. It is so gimmicky that it should be powerful simply because the risk to take such a payload is so damn high. UAC/10 might be dangerous, but...you only get two. It's no worse than what you would find on a Clan 'Mech, actually less dangerous because it has almost the same requirements as two AC/20...which is itself a gimmicky build.

TL;DR: IS tech is inherently well balanced with itself. Clan Tech is not.