36 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Probably not that moronic from a theoretical standpoint. You can't really know until you play it.

The real problem is that PGI doesn't make adjustments or take feedback from the people who *DO* play it.

[s0da72]

This will continue to be an on going problem for PGI. They want to create maps that work with all quick play game modes and as soon as they change a mode or add a new one it most likely won't work accross all the maps.

I wish they would stop this practice and make maps that are dedicated to a single game mode like they did with CW. Quick play game modes feel watered down, and play out basically the same way.

Edited by s0da72, 24 November 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[xengk]

Unpopular opinion: I think both these map offer different strategy.
I often vote Domination, Capture and Assault over Skirmish, have won and lost match on either spawn for both maps.

Alpine Peak.
Left spawn
Pro: flat land from spawn to domination, fast mech early capture.
Con: exposed position on domination.

Right spawn
Pro: high ground on domination.
Con: rough terrain, possible to lose the match even before seeing domination.

Crimson Strait
Bottom spawn
Pro: closer and easy access to domination, high ground advantage
Con: Alpha and Beta expose to attack, exposed position on domination

Top spawn
Pro: multiple access route to domination, Alpha is nested away from fighting
Con: farther to domination, require more coordination between players.

[Lightfoot]

These are the Test game-mode maps.

[Besh]

Idk, I just think people mask their inability to understand what needs to be done to win Dom ( especially on Alpine and Crimson ) behind "bad Map design" .

Foreal, It makes my brain bleed when I spawn on bottom Alpine Domination, half the Team goes "Oh NOEZ, we are on teh loozing Side", then proceeds to huddle/clusterfuk at the bottom of the same Hill and starts getting killed trying to poke left or right, while noone manages to get into the Circle, or stay in it long enough .

There IS a winning Strat for this Map/mode/spawn, but it requires literally the ENTIRE TEAM ( target saturation ftw yo! ) to march a bit over open terrain . IF your Team does it, you end up in a perfect flanking position with nice cover, you can start harassing/taking out their Snipers, and really, really can win the Game . Ofc DOES Help if people in your Team are able to shoot and hit while on the move...

Its just...even when I suggest it, Team mostly rather goes "NOPE, not going to walk over open Terrain", proceeds to the bottom of that same Hill and...you know the rest of the Story .

As for Crimson, similar applies . Adapted to Map specifics ofc .

And dont get me started on Teams playing Dom on River City with the uberleet "lezz-all-clusterfuk-behind-Citadel" strat ( actually does not matter which Side you spawn for this to be a fav. of too many people...) . The ONLY reason why those Teams win Dom on River City at all is the other Team'S inability to exploit the mistake(S) .

PhoenixFire55, on 24 November 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

There is no advantage, there is a circle and you can have mechs in it fully under cover from both sides on both maps. Anything else is just an excuse used by PUG bads.

Akhri Mala, on 24 November 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

I don't think you're playing the same game as the rest of us...

Appogee, on 24 November 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

What utter BS.

Actually , PhoenixFire55 is right re. Cover on those 2 Maps .

Edited by Besh, 25 November 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[Bombast]

Besh, on 25 November 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

Btw., PhoenixFire55 is right re. Cover on those 2 Maps .

No, he isn't right. Alpine, at the very least, is heavily slanted in favor of one team.

You just admitted to it yourself - The 'losing' side has one chance, and it involves all 12 people joining a hive mind, or all lucking the **** out and being all Tier 1, VOIP using mech masters. While the other side has to made of complete potatoes who are all playing with drool soaked keyboards for it to work.

It happens, of course, but it's absurdly rare.

That's the very definition of an unbalanced map.

Edited by Bombast, 25 November 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[Besh]

Bombast, on 25 November 2016 - 01:16 AM, said:

No, he isn't right. Alpine, at the very least, is heavily slanted in favor of one team.

You just admitted to it yourself - The 'losing' side has one chance, and it involves all 12 people joining a hive mind, or all lucking the **** out and being all Tier 1, VOIP using mech masters. While the other side has to made of complete potatoes who are all playing with drool soaked keyboards for it to work.

It happens, of course, but it's absurdly rare.

That's the very definition of an unbalanced map.

Please note how I specifially wrote :

Besh, on 25 November 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

Actually , PhoenixFire55 is right re. Cover on those 2 Maps .

referring to the boldened, enlarged portion of his post I quoted:

PhoenixFire55, on 24 November 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

There is no advantage, there is a circle and you can have mechs in it fully under cover from both sides on both maps. Anything else is just an excuse used by PUG bads.

As for the "loosing Side" on Alpine having "one Chance", and needing to meet all the other requirements you wrote: just no .

Honestly, how often exactly do people need to repeat the same thing, over and over agan, failing, until they just look at the friggin Map and SEE there is at least ONE other Option ? If I can see it, it can not be too hard, seriously . Or at least so I thought XD .

Also want to add, I did not claim the Strat. I was referring to be the only one to work . Its just the only I have reliably seen to work . Havent gotten any Team I was part of to try something completely different yet....they are mostly just too hellbent to clusterfuk at the bottom of that Hill and fail XD .

Edited by Besh, 25 November 2016 - 01:34 AM.

[Bombast]

Besh, on 25 November 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

Please note how I specifially wrote :

I haven't a clue what in the hell you mean.

You said PhoenixFire55 was right, even after perfectly describing why he's wrong. Unless that bit was entirely sarcastic and I'm missing it.

[Besh]

Bombast, on 25 November 2016 - 01:21 AM, said:

I haven't a clue what in the hell you mean.

You said PhoenixFire55 was right, even after perfectly describing why he's wrong. Unless that bit was entirely sarcastic and I'm missing it.

I had to edit in several quotes, which is why at first glance you only saw that one Line . By now, I think my meaning is somewhat clearer . Apologies .

Edited by Besh, 25 November 2016 - 01:39 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Grim Plexus or whatever the hell the Cybertron map for QP on Domination is 8.6% the reason why I want to kill myself (which is pretty big considering there are a lot)

[PhoenixFire55]

Bombast, on 24 November 2016 - 12:57 PM, said:

Some of the maps are debatable, but there's at least one where there is, without a doubt, a huge side bias on Domination - Alpine Peaks.

"Bias" doesn't necesserily mean any sort of advantage. Once again, you can have at least one mech within the circle, fully in cover for both sides. This one mech in the circle is enough to prevent the opposing team from decreasing the timer. What other 11 mechs on each team do and where they place themselves is a completely different matter. As you have a mech preventing the timer already you can position your remaining team wherever you damn want.

I.e. the fact that PUGs can't or refuse to actually use their brains for a change to counter the obvious strategy used by the PUGs from the other supposedly "advantageous" side has nothing to do with map balance.

Appogee, on 24 November 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

What utter BS.

Your self criticism is inspiring.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 25 November 2016 - 03:49 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 25 November 2016 - 01:59 AM, said:

Grim Plexus or whatever the hell the Cybertron map for QP on Domination is 8.6% the reason why I want to kill myself (which is pretty big considering there are a lot)

thats because of the majorities players "need to be int he circle" mentality. Which makes the one team closer to the circle go into it, while the other team deplyos at the edges of the other hill and snipe the hell out of the circle campers.

[Navid A1]

Alpine peaks domination have been reported.

PGI is looking into it according to their responses.

[TercieI]

Navid A1, on 25 November 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

Alpine peaks domination have been reported.

PGI is looking into it according to their responses.

How encouraging. They already moved it on Alpine once. They actually made it worse.

[F1oyd]

My theorie is that they do not play their game. otherwise they would know that some gamemode and map combination are absolutely no fun to play...My theorie is more kind of a general theorie for several design decisions made...info warfare, minimap changes, cw phase 3, ed....

[Hunka Junk]

You put the circle at the bottom of a cliff.

Then one team at the top and the other at the bottom?

Counterstrike (the original, made by players) sorted that in six months back in '00.

It's a thing called playtesting.

A ton of maps were rolled out. A bunch of them you only saw back in the day before de_dust was found to be balanced.

In this case, the map came before the mode.

But the mode wasn't playtested.

It's crap.

Is there a way to win on the bad side? Yes, but that's not balance.

It's laziness.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Lily from animove, on 25 November 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

thats because of the majorities players "need to be int he circle" mentality. Which makes the one team closer to the circle go into it, while the other team deplyos at the edges of the other hill and snipe the hell out of the circle campers.

In my experience, like 80% of the time, the Centurion going 80kph (me) is the one on the circle first while the rest of the team is playing conga behind assaults. While they set up a firing line OUTSIDE the circle, I'm just sitting behind cover going up against 2 lights, a heavy a Kodiak while getting rained by LRMs. The team would then panic and move in to the circle when the enemy is about to win in 10 seconds.