50 replies to this topic

[Gaden Phoenix]

Hi all,
Looking to get a new medium with the sale on Tuesday. Would like to enquire, you your opinion, which is the better med. mech to get?

The Phoenix Hawk or the Shadow Hawk? I like 300~500M range combat alot.

[xe N on]

I would advise to take none of them. Both are outclassed by many other medium mechs.

IS mediums are generally not very strong in mid range combat, because of the limited free weight you cannot fit more than 3 to 4 large lasers. Which is inferior to anything clan can bring (e.g. 6 C-ERML with TC1 and range module = 42 alpha @ 460 m coming at 7 tons of weight).

For IS mediums you go best for long range harasser with 3x ER-LL or brawling with SRMs or medium (pulse) lasers


If you like 300 to 500 m, take a clan mech aka the SCR or HBK-IIC.

If however you want one of these mechs for reasons, take the SHD-2K. Drop all other SHDs beside 2K. They suck.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed80b421e35a53f

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7b2ff52d706813c

Edited by xe N on, 26 November 2016 - 01:19 AM.

[RestosIII]

Do you really need to ask with your profile name? If you're going to get either one, obviously the Phoenix Hawk with that name.

[Gaden Phoenix]

The Phoenix Hawk, I still remember Crescent Hawk's Interception in which the whole purpose (best part) was to get the Phoenix Hawk LAM... Might be a big part of how I got my nickname too

Still not sure if the Phoenix Hawk is actually good/playable in this game. Or is the bigger Shadow Hawk (it's brother) a better choice.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 26 November 2016 - 01:25 AM.

[z3a1ot]

Depends on what weapon systems you like to use. Phoenix Hawks usually go with lasers and I have seen people doing wonders with it, but be aware that thir arms are squishy and most of the armament is in arms. For Shawks you could go with some AC and SRM combo or 2K variant for some lasers for longer range combat.

If I had to pick I would go Shadowhawks.

[Sjorpha]

Shadow Hawk is a lot stronger than the Phoenix Hawk.

2K is good with Large lasers, large pulses, PPCs, or a brawling combo of medium pulse and ASRM6s. The 2D2 is a good brawler with 4SRM4 + AC10 or LBX10. The other variants are weaker but not bad.

Phoenix Hawk is one of the weakest mechs in the game sadly.

[Snazzy Dragon]

They are really rough mechs to pilot. Hands down. BUT there are some pretty nice builds for them.. I'll list my favorites across the Shadow Hawk variants worth getting for mastery. And by all means, I seriously respect players that play them anyways and perform well in them even if they are outclassed.

Shadow Hawk 2K:

Spoiler

STD engine 3x Large Pulse
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1486c3381988c8

XL Version
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c078a0a5119e82a

BLAP:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b75c9ea69a2ae8d

Shadow Hawk 5M:

Spoiler

Dakkadakkadakka
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d27e3a7e74acf18

Iunno what else to do with it, really

Shadow Hawk 2H:

Spoiler

Trident:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...73795bb338c7fad
I screwed up the armor a little but im lazy ;_; pls forgive

Pitchfork:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b1aaa799938da83

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 26 November 2016 - 02:07 AM.

[Ryllen Kriel]

I am a little biased on this topic since I love medium mechs. With that admission in mind, they are both great fun to play and I have "mastered" all variants of each chassis with the exception of the PHX-KK. The two mechs are roughly the same volume but have a ten tonne weight difference in favour of the Shadow Hawk. The SDH also has more armour, weight for more weapons, some higher weapons mounts for hill peeking and generally more variety of builds due to weapon locations. The PHX mechs have two ECM variants and can run faster, that's about it. PHX mechs suffer still from having most of their weapons in their arms, and those still are shot off easily, even after a recent armour buff.

Level them all up eventually if you enjoy medium mechs, they are both iconic Battletech chassis. Neither are even close to meta mechs, but the Shadow Hawk is superior in nearly every way to the Phoenix Hawk in my opinion.

[xe N on]

Sjorpha, on 26 November 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Shadow Hawk is a lot stronger than the Phoenix Hawk.

Which is still weak. I own 4 SHDs all mastered (all beside Grey Death and 2K) and don't bring any of them into a serious fight. Most of them are stripped completely. Only reason I didn't sell them is nostalgia.

[Sjorpha]

xe N on, on 26 November 2016 - 02:27 AM, said:

Which is still weak. I own 4 SHDs all mastered (all beside Grey Death and 2K) and don't bring any of them into a serious fight. Most of them are stripped completely. Only reason I didn't sell them is nostalgia.

I disagree with that. The 2K and 2D2 are both still strong mechs IMO. The 2D2 is the one I would still say has a unique niche as the 4srm4 + AC10 build is very strong for dueling. The 2K being good is less relevant since the blackjack 3 does the same thing a little better.

Shadow hawk is also a very strong base design, that has fallen behind because of low quirks, but if you would remove all quirks it would be a contender for strongest IS mech. So in that light it would only take a slight buff to it's quirks to make it one of the competitive IS mediums.

[xe N on]

Sjorpha, on 26 November 2016 - 02:37 AM, said:

I disagree with that. The 2K and 2D2 are both still strong mechs IMO. The 2D2 is the one I would still say has a unique niche as the 4srm4 + AC10 build is very strong for dueling. The 2K being good is less relevant since the blackjack 3 does the same thing a little better.

AC10 + 4 SRM4 on a 2D2 is somewhat OK-ish but it you want to brawl seriously in IS mechs get a GRF. I own all GRFs and I see no reason to switch to SHD 2D2 if I can run a GRF-3M or 2N. I would even consider any CN9 with AC20 a better brawler then the SHD-2D2.

Quote

Shadow hawk is also a very strong base design, that has fallen behind because of low quirks, but if you would remove all quirks it would be a contender for strongest IS mech. So in that light it would only take a slight buff to it's quirks to make it one of the competitive IS mediums.

It is not only the quirk situation. If it would be a strong design there would be no need for quirks anyway. The SHD has mixed ballistics, energy and missile hardpoints. It can't boat anything well (and for boating ballistics it's need to be at least 75 tons). All energy hardpoints are low slung (beside 2K). The head missile slot cannot be upgraded to SRM6 or even Artemis.

It was considered the most best medium during the poptart area. Because you could fit an UAC5 + 2 PPCs, combined with one single jumpjet. You can still run that but you need to equip at least 4 jumpjets which reduces the engine size and this build runs quite hot. I was able to pull some impressive numbers with it in that poptart time. But nowadays ... it just a outdated relict.

Edited by xe N on, 26 November 2016 - 03:01 AM.

[Warglbargl]

XL300 + 3 LPL on the SHD-2K is great, little reason to bother with the others.

[jss78]

I think it comes down to the play style you prefer.

Phoenix Hawk gameplay revolves around arm-mounted weapons (a couple variants get token torso weapons). It gives them agility, but also used to be a big problem, as they were so easily disarmed. It's a much smaller problem after the last patch. They benefit of the great JJ performance 40-45 tonners get, so if you enjoy mounting 6 JJ's and really flying around, they're one of the better options for that.

The Shadow Hawk 2K is probably the meta-friendlest of all of them, because of the wonderful geometry. It's also effectively a different chassis compared to other Shadow Hawks. You have 3M 3E sitting on top of your shoulders, giving lots of options (3xERLL, 3xLPL, 3xASRM6+3xML...), and great shield arms which carry no weapons.

All other Shadow Hawks revolve around that shoulder ballistic (or 2-3 in a couple variants), and supplementing that with arm lasers and/or torso missiles in a way that works for you. You see tons of approaches. My preferred variant is the Gray Death, because it gets excellent quirks for the AC/10, which for me is the best suited ballistic for the Shadow Hawk, given that you can generally only mount one ballistic and given the tonnage constraints. It also gets arm mounts for 4xML, which synergizes well with the AC/10.

If you're highly competitive and meta-minded, probably the answer is to get neither of them. For me this isn't so relevant for pug queue play, I'm just looking for a 'mech with a fun play style (and if possible, good looks ).

Edited by jss78, 26 November 2016 - 03:16 AM.

[QuantumButler]

xe N on, on 26 November 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

AC10 + 4 SRM4 on a 2D2 is somewhat OK-ish but it you want to brawl seriously in IS mechs get a GRF. I own all GRFs and I see no reason to switch to SHD 2D2 if I can run a GRF-3M or 2N. I would even consider any CN9 with AC20 a better brawler then the SHD-2D2.



It is not only the quirk situation. If it would be a strong design there would be no need for quirks anyway. The SHD has mixed ballistics, energy and missile hardpoints. It can't boat anything well (and for boating ballistics it's need to be at least 75 tons). All energy hardpoints are low slung (beside 2K). The head missile slot cannot be upgraded to SRM6 or even Artemis.

It was considered the most best medium during the poptart area. Because you could fit an UAC5 + 2 PPCs, combined with one single jumpjet. You can still run that but you need to equip at least 4 jumpjets which reduces the engine size and this build runs quite hot. I was able to pull some impressive numbers with it in that poptart time. But nowadays ... it just a outdated relict.

I've always done way better in my Shadowhawk 2k with 3 ASRM6 and 3 ML than any Griffin, for some reason.

Edited by QuantumButler, 26 November 2016 - 03:24 AM.

[El Bandito]

Embrace the shadow... hawk.

[martian]

Gaden Phoenix, on 26 November 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

Hi all,
Looking to get a new medium with the sale on Tuesday. Would like to enquire, you your opinion, which is the better med. mech to get?

The Phoenix Hawk or the Shadow Hawk? I like 300~500M range combat alot.

In my opinion I would go with the Shadow Hawk.

There are some reasons why I would prefer this 'Mech:

• The Shadow Hawk has many shoulder-high hardpoints - on the other hand, the Phoenix Hawk has usually everything in both low arms (with the exception of PXH-1b that has just one energy hardpoint in the right shoulder).
  
• The Shadow Hawk offers variants allowing for diverse builds - laser/missile brawler, AC fire support, PPC fire support, etc. Or you simply go with a "jack-of-all-trades" mixed build. With the Phoenix Hawk, you will probably end with some kind of laser boat on all variants.
  
• The Shadow Hawk has shield arms that protect your side torsos.
  
• The Shadow Hawk has arms that you can lose and you will still be left with some weapons. The Phoenix Hawk without arms is either completely disarmed or almost harmless (depending on the exact model).
  
• The Shadow Hawk can carry more armor.
  
• The Shadow Hawk is cool looking.

[Tordin]

Both are great mechs, the Phawk have become bit better due to increased arm armor. The Shadow Hawk is well rounded and have good hiboxes, can boat ballistics and srms much better thant the Phoenix.
Dont listen to the snobbish meta-heads, they seems so restricted by quirk and ultimate build addiction that they totally forgo other more viable builds.
3x large pulse lasers, in a brawl? Yeah good luck with that. Better be aware of the cooldowns and heat.
Though, yes its up to which role you want to play and NO mech is worthless. The massive quirk laundry list gives all other mech which does not have them the impression they are "bad". Every mech, every chassi, every variant demands certain kind of pilots.

Anyway, I like to run my Phoenix Hawk 3s with 2 x large pulse lasers, ecm, lots of jump jets and an xl engine.
The Shadow Hawk is my oldest favorite, got all variants aswell with the phoenix hawk variants. Its the bigger cousin of the phoenix hawk and acts like a taller hunchback. My favorite gotta be the 2D in fact. An AC 5/10, some medium lasers and surms + standard engine etc. Its a survivor. and decent at brawling. And the Gray Deat works very well with 3 x mpl, ac10/ lbx10 and even an xl engine.

Edited by Tordin, 26 November 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[Zieten]

I haven't piloted a Phoenix Hawk yet, but i do like my Shadow Hawks quite a lot. Especially the already mentioned AC10/4SRM4 build really works well. Handlingwise they are a bit stiff though. Not exactly the most nimble Medium Mechs ingame.

[RAM]

Shad plays more like a heavy; PHawk plays more like a light.


RAM
ELH

[Tarl Cabot]

Shadow Hawk, which is not meta, would be one of many mediums that would be improved if IS tech had at least two things, a survivable isXL engine and the isUAC10, even after the recent UAC changes.

To stay on topic, besides memory lane, why those two medium mechs? Personally I have both but the Phoenix Hawk has seen very little play time, only one even basic'd but then I have not played the Shadow Hawk much, or any other IS mediums. But if I did it would be the Shadow Hawk and Wolverine or even the Enforcer.

One mech I have enjoyed playing and leveling up is the Huntsman w/stock omnipods. It and the Hunchback IIs are the more recent medium mechs I have played. I have not even basic'd the other three Clan meds that I have. The Huntsman is like the Clan version of the Shadow Hawk but a survivable XL, even with the heat/movement penalties. And all but one or two using UAC10 + energy/srms.