25 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

So I know the skill tree revamp is an ambitious attempt to deal away with the current skill tree, quirks, and modules all the same time.

However, there in lies a problem.

A mech GXP unlock is universal... meaning, shared by ALL your mechs.
A mech XP unlock is variant... meaning, shared by ALL mechs of that same variant
HOWEVER, a module is a specific chasis dependent, meaning... equipping seismic is NOT shared by all the variants.

Is the new skill tree suggesting that EACH and EVERY chasis must be individually grind? Cause... holy fok...

You are not talking about 8 types of mechs with 4 variants each. For me, I have 8 EBJ of 4 variants, grinding 4 was hard enough... now I have to grind 8????

And I can't be the only one with multiple single variant. I have 50 odd mechs as of now. Imagine the people with 200+

Do they have to grind ALL 200?????

Then I REALLY hope the grind to max skill points is not as tedious as released right now. Cause what's the point of releasing new mechs if you are NEVER going to be able to play it at maximum capacity due to the sheer grindiness?

(And it would be terrible if the skill tree is variant shared... what if my B variant can support both a LRM and a Ballistic build? I don't want one chasis of the B variant to be ineffective because I chose to have skill points in the LRM tree)

Edited by razenWing, 04 December 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[RestosIII]

Hmmmmm. I just realized. They said that each mech you own will have a separate skill tree, right? But we'd be getting a full EXP refund? So say I own 2 TBR-Primes. I'm sitting on 200,000 EXP for them. In the new system, will each TBR-Prime have 200k EXP to spend, or will that EXP get split between them? Or will just one of them get the EXP?

We really need them to go more in-depth on this stuff.

[Widowmaker1981]

Id assume it will be per variant - i.e you'd never have to grind more than one Kodiak-3, for example.

The details we have seem to be a bit sketchy, i think its probably best to wait and see when we have details and can work things out properly. I doubt it will be millions of XP to master a mech, if im honest.

[RestosIII]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 December 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Id assume it will be per variant - i.e you'd never have to grind more than one Kodiak-3, for example.

The details we have seem to be a bit sketchy, i think its probably best to wait and see when we have details and can work things out properly. I doubt it will be millions of XP to master a mech, if im honest.

They seemed to imply that each mech you own will have its own skill tree. For instance, someone that owns a TBR-Prime (I) and a TBR-Prime would have separate trees for them.

[Barantor]

It depends on if it is a 'grind' or 'progression'. Some folks call any leveling in an MMO a 'grind' because they don't enjoy the process of it, meanwhile others don't mind it and some really enjoy it.

I think right now though we don't know enough. I asked Russ on twitter for a pic of their sample skill tree, hopefully we get to see that and can garner more info from it.

[Tristan Winter]

Barantor, on 04 December 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

It depends on if it is a 'grind' or 'progression'. Some folks call any leveling in an MMO a 'grind' because they don't enjoy the process of it, meanwhile others don't mind it and some really enjoy it.

So much truth here.

"Oh my god, MWO has no endgame! There's nothing left for me to work towards! I have no long term goals!"
"Ok, here are some long term goals."
"Oh my god, the grind is killing me! Now I have to play so much to reach the endgame! This is ridiculous!"

In a PVP game, the only way to avoid a "grind" to unlock the full potential of any mech would be to make all endgame content cosmetic items like camo patterns, unique geometry and cockpit items. Now, I don't particularly have a problem with that. But I imagine that a lot of people who complain that there is no endgame would be unhappy if the only endgame content was cosmetic.

[RestosIII]

Tristan Winter, on 04 December 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

So much truth here.

"Oh my god, MWO has no endgame! There's nothing left for me to work towards! I have no long term goals!"
"Ok, here are some long term goals."
"Oh my god, the grind is killing me! Now I have to play so much to reach the endgame! This is ridiculous!"

In a PVP game, the only way to avoid a "grind" to unlock the full potential of any mech would be to make all endgame content cosmetic items like camo patterns, unique geometry and cockpit items. Now, I don't particularly have a problem with that. But I imagine that a lot of people who complain that there is no endgame would be unhappy if the only endgame content was cosmetic.

I'd be less unhappy with it if the grind had anything to do with what people I drop against in matches. But it most definitely won't. That means I'll be facing people running fully upped mechs vs my piddly Adder that lost all of its quirks.

[razenWing]

Barantor, on 04 December 2016 - 10:32 AM, said:

It depends on if it is a 'grind' or 'progression'. Some folks call any leveling in an MMO a 'grind' because they don't enjoy the process of it, meanwhile others don't mind it and some really enjoy it.

I think right now though we don't know enough. I asked Russ on twitter for a pic of their sample skill tree, hopefully we get to see that and can garner more info from it.

"Leveling" must be within reason. Especially because this is a pvp game at heart. You don't go on raids together to win gear. Like CoD or other FPS game, you need "grind" to unlock guns to get a sense of accomplishment. That I am not against. What I do think is a problem is that if a grind takes 5000 match, then its entirely unrealistic.

[Mechsniper]

The grind for a mech has to end sometime or its pointless. The current bar is already high for adults with jobs/family's that buy content for real $. At some point you want to just be able to take your mechs and fight instead of grind. It has to be kept reasonable.

Edited by Mechsniper, 04 December 2016 - 10:50 AM.

[Barantor]

RestosIII, on 04 December 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

I'd be less unhappy with it if the grind had anything to do with what people I drop against in matches. But it most definitely won't. That means I'll be facing people running fully upped mechs vs my piddly Adder that lost all of its quirks.

Since the quirks will be rolled into the skills you probably already have enough points to unlock them again unless you just bought it recently.

If each skill tree is unique to each mech like I believe Russ said on stage you will probably have the same quirks for the Adder as unlocks. Hell you might have things that other mechs don't have too like radar derp and such, we don't know enough information yet and I hope they tell us some things pretty soon.

[RestosIII]

Barantor, on 04 December 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Since the quirks will be rolled into the skills you probably already have enough points to unlock them again unless you just bought it recently.

Except what if, I dunno, I don't have enough points for it to get back to my old quirk levels? What if I buy a new mech I've never piloted before? Me being at T2 would be torturous if I were to grab say... a Victor now. But once this skill tree is out? It would be a proper death sentence for me to grind to the current quirk levels. That's my main fear/complaint about this system, it just seems like it's going to make so many mechs and experiences in this game ****.

[EgoSlayer]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 December 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Id assume it will be per variant - i.e you'd never have to grind more than one Kodiak-3, for example.

The details we have seem to be a bit sketchy, i think its probably best to wait and see when we have details and can work things out properly. I doubt it will be millions of XP to master a mech, if im honest.

In the presentation Russ said the skill trees were mech specific. If you have two KDK-3 they each have their own skill tree so you could unlock them with different paths. E.g. one for UAC5/UAC10 weapon tree, one for PPC/Gauss weapon tree for example.
The problem is the "basic" tree items are separate too, whereas now you only have to unlock Heat Retention on one KDK-3 and it will apply to all KDK-3s you buy (but you also have to unlock all the basics on 3 variants to be able to get elite skills like speed tweak), you now have to unlock Heat Retention on every KDK individually, but now if you only buy the KDK-3 you would be able to unlock Speed tweak (and every other elite/master skill) without ever buying any other variant.

I doubt we will be refunded XP for duplicate variants, since it was only earned once it will only be returned once. But we'll now have to skill them up individually. It's a bummer for existing duplicates, but going forward if you know you only want one variant, that's all you have to buy and your skills are not held back by the set of three requirement. So if you buy one duplicate you are still sort of ahead since you didn't need to skill up a third one.

[WarHippy]

Tristan Winter, on 04 December 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

So much truth here.

"Oh my god, MWO has no endgame! There's nothing left for me to work towards! I have no long term goals!"
"Ok, here are some long term goals."
"Oh my god, the grind is killing me! Now I have to play so much to reach the endgame! This is ridiculous!"

In a PVP game, the only way to avoid a "grind" to unlock the full potential of any mech would be to make all endgame content cosmetic items like camo patterns, unique geometry and cockpit items. Now, I don't particularly have a problem with that. But I imagine that a lot of people who complain that there is no endgame would be unhappy if the only endgame content was cosmetic.

Long term end game goals should not ever include basic improvements to make your mech actually functional. Basic functionality should not ever be locked behind a long grind. Cosmetic goals? Great! Take six months to unlock something cosmetic is fine by me, but to put necessary skills to remain competitive behind a long tedious grind is a pretty big negative in my book.

[Barantor]

RestosIII, on 04 December 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Except what if, I dunno, I don't have enough points for it to get back to my old quirk levels? What if I buy a new mech I've never piloted before? Me being at T2 would be torturous if I were to grab say... a Victor now. But once this skill tree is out? It would be a proper death sentence for me to grind to the current quirk levels. That's my main fear/complaint about this system, it just seems like it's going to make so many mechs and experiences in this game ****.

You grab that victor and start leveling it up, you will be in the same boat as everyone else that has a new mech. It's not any fun as it is to master a new mech in T2, that really won't change much.

It's a change, change is always hard. Adapt and overcome.

I'm of the mind that if this is done well (we don't know enough yet imo) then it could be a very good change for the game.

I'm wondering if it will affect how fast folks tier up or down too.

Me? I'm cautiously optimistic because something had to be done with quirks, skills and modules IMO.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Tristan Winter, on 04 December 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

So much truth here.

"Oh my god, MWO has no endgame! There's nothing left for me to work towards! I have no long term goals!"
"Ok, here are some long term goals."
"Oh my god, the grind is killing me! Now I have to play so much to reach the endgame! This is ridiculous!"

In a PVP game, the only way to avoid a "grind" to unlock the full potential of any mech would be to make all endgame content cosmetic items like camo patterns, unique geometry and cockpit items. Now, I don't particularly have a problem with that. But I imagine that a lot of people who complain that there is no endgame would be unhappy if the only endgame content was cosmetic.

Hiding basic features behind a grindwall does not make an endgame content. Anything that directly affects basic pug matches everybody starts with cannot be called an endgame content.

Endgame content, besides unique cosmetics, could be a functioning Community Warfare, some bases for units you can build or some other stuff like that.

Not that I ever cried about lack of endgame content. It's a good thing to have, but smashing mechs is fun in itself.

Barantor, on 04 December 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

You grab that victor and start leveling it up, you will be in the same boat as everyone else that has a new mech. It's not any fun as it is to master a new mech in T2, that really won't change much.
It's a change, change is always hard. Adapt and overcome.
I'm of the mind that if this is done well (we don't know enough yet imo) then it could be a very good change for the game.
I'm wondering if it will affect how fast folks tier up or down too.
Me? I'm cautiously optimistic because something had to be done with quirks, skills and modules IMO.

In this case adapting and overcoming would basically mean don't ever try bad mechs or be ready for 2 months of getting your rear handed to you because you dared to do so. Such fun game.

[NoiseCrypt]

I love the skilltree-nomorequirks concept, but i just added up the numbers from my stats.
(warning mediocre player data below)

I started playing a couple of weeks after the steam launch, and had a break over a couple of months during the summer.
This gives me an in-match time of 132 hours and 17 minutes. (5.5 days)
During this time i have earned 1'585'191mxp playing mainly lights and mediums.
If 75 skill-tree points is going cost 750'000mxp (and some cbills), then i will have enough mxp to "master" 2 of my +80mechs.
And it will take med 39 years to master the rest of them...

Edited by NoiseCrypt, 04 December 2016 - 11:51 AM.

[RestosIII]

Barantor, on 04 December 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

You grab that victor and start leveling it up, you will be in the same boat as everyone else that has a new mech. It's not any fun as it is to master a new mech in T2, that really won't change much.

It's a change, change is always hard. Adapt and overcome.

I'm of the mind that if this is done well (we don't know enough yet imo) then it could be a very good change for the game.

I'm wondering if it will affect how fast folks tier up or down too.

Me? I'm cautiously optimistic because something had to be done with quirks, skills and modules IMO.

Again, the current system sucks to level because you're going to be weaker than the same mech leveled fully, but with this system it'll be much, much worse because not only do you not have bonuses, you don't have any of the quirks that were around pre-update to make it not garbage. I can make basic'd lore loadouts work in this game ATM for Clan mechs. I was just recently thinking about pulling the trigger at grabbing a Mr. Gargles. You give me a Mr. Gargles and tell me "If you grind REAL HARD, you can get to your base level quirks!", I'm not going to bother getting new mechs any more. I'm just going to sit on 3-4 mechs I enjoy and never leave them, because that's the only way I'll be able to make them viable again. I don't want that.

This debating on the forums is why we really need more info to be released about it, so we know for sure what we're going to deal with.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tristan Winter, on 04 December 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

So much truth here.

"Oh my god, MWO has no endgame! There's nothing left for me to work towards! I have no long term goals!"
"Ok, here are some long term goals."
"Oh my god, the grind is killing me! Now I have to play so much to reach the endgame! This is ridiculous!"

In a PVP game, the only way to avoid a "grind" to unlock the full potential of any mech would be to make all endgame content cosmetic items like camo patterns, unique geometry and cockpit items. Now, I don't particularly have a problem with that. But I imagine that a lot of people who complain that there is no endgame would be unhappy if the only endgame content was cosmetic.

You do realize there is a big difference between end game and grind right because it sure doesn't sound like you do.

I will be the first to say that I have been clamoring for something to do with all the unused XP I had accumulated on my mechs but I wanted that something to be more along the lines of some sort of bonus or addition to the system we already had in game. What I didn't want was for a replacement system that reset all the progression I had on over 100 mechs back to virtually zero and would require me to play each variant I own 500 matches in order to get them back to where they were in the first place.

What I advocated for was a universal skill tree that would slowly allow us to customize our play style like spending a few hundred thousand XP to augment my overall heat management abilities by 3% over all my mechs or spend another few hundred thousand XP to augment my overall ability to use JJs. Another option I had mentioned was having 4 skill trees, one for each weight class of mech that would allow you to customize the entire weight class. Another was the addition of pilots that you could individually customize for specific roles. I even advocated for a never ending advancement system using one of these three methods that would incrementally increase any number of skills depending on how much XP you spent in that skill. Hell I wouldn't even mind if it took 1 million XP to raise your heat management skill by 1% as long as it was some sort of universal bonus you could earn.

Those type of systems wouldn't effect the current progression we have already accumulated and would have severed the same purpose without turning things upside down and potentially resetting 4 years of progress on my mechs. Also while those systems might constituted a grind, it would have been a fun grind that would have a relatively small effect on gameplay while giving people a reason to accumulate experience. It was also have resulted in mechs only being effected in a positive manner. They way they have it right now, we are going to find a good portion of our favorite mechs reduced to trash due to losing all the quirks and traits that made them good combined with a massive grind being required to get those quirks and traits back. This is the issue, not that they are adding another progression mechanic.

[Barantor]

RestosIII, on 04 December 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

This debating on the forums is why we really need more info to be released about it, so we know for sure what we're going to deal with.

This I agree with you wholeheartedly on.

[3xnihilo]

NoiseCrypt, on 04 December 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

And it will take med 39 years to master the rest of them...

This guarantees the longevity of the game. . .


Or something like that :/