23 replies to this topic

[Rhialto]

Currently running 2 x AC/10 and 4 x ML with STD250 but could go with XL300. Does the raise in speed/agility is enough to justify the XL?

[AncientRaig]

XL in a Catapult is generally a bad idea. It has enormous ST hitboxes and no shield arms to spread damage.

[Rhialto]

That's what I was thinking too. I saw someone with 2xUAC5 and 2xLPL but could not guess engine as I haven't had a chance to look at speed.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

XL definitely a good idea on many builds. It's hitboxes are pretty great at spreading damage, especially after its rescale.

I run the 2AC10 + 4ML XL300 build and it runs great for me. I really wouldn't go with an STD250 since I'd be as slow as the assaults but just weaker in every way. That XL's speed will give you greater ability to dodge damage by peeking, moving to cover, and just generally being a faster moving target. Overall its very solid.

[AncientRaig]

Dakota1000, on 04 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

XL definitely a good idea on many builds. It's hitboxes are pretty great at spreading damage, especially after its rescale.

I run the 2AC10 + 4ML XL300 build and it runs great for me. I really wouldn't go with an STD250 since I'd be as slow as the assaults but just weaker in every way. That XL's speed will give you greater ability to dodge damage by peeking, moving to cover, and just generally being a faster moving target. Overall its very solid.

I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm still in T3, but taking a look at the fact that the Catapult is at least 70% ST hitbox, wouldn't an XL be a horrible idea akin to running an XL in a Stalker?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sidefire, on 04 December 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

I don't know. Maybe it's just because I'm still in T3, but taking a look at the fact that the Catapult is at least 70% ST hitbox, wouldn't an XL be a horrible idea akin to running an XL in a Stalker?

Well, in a stalker an XL doesn't really give it a large boost to speed since its max engine is 315 and most people just run a standard 300 anyway. Its also mostly a missile and laser mech, so it doesn't need much tonnage anyway. So using an XL in that really doesn't give you much. Stalker also has rather bad torso twist ability, so it just shields by deadsiding rather than damage spreading.

Catapult has a very wide torso twist yaw and twists faster in general. Its large arm hitboxes, though not in a position to shield well, were big enough that when the mechs were rescaled based on volume the torso ended up rather small. An XL in a Catapult is very similar to an XL medium mech.

A lot of IS mechs can run XL engines rather well, but its a different type of damage spreading technique compared to just running a STD engine. Your goal when hit is to wiggle the torso back and fourth a bit to get damage spread to at least all 3 of the torso components rather than fully twisting the torso 90 degrees to catch it all in one side or shield arm.

Mechs like the Black Knight, Warhammer, Catapult, and Grasshopper are all in the upper levels of IS meta due to their ability to tank well enough while still bringing an XL. If one side seems like its taking more damage than the other try to focus damage more torwards the healthier side and the CT. With a standard you don't have to care about losing a side and all the firepower with it all too much, you're like an onion with layers that can be peeled off. The issue is that you get weaker each time unless you are running a full on deadside build. With an XL build you try to keep all that you have for as long as possible so that you are constantly fighting at full potential and with more firepower for at least as long as the standard engine build stayed alive. It works quite well for killing enemies off fast enough that they can't deal the same amount of damage to you that you could take in a STD build.

Its overall a little more complicated and risky compared to an STD build, but the high gains in firepower, cooling, or speed that these chassis gain by using an XL can far outweigh the tanking of a standard.

[AncientRaig]

Dakota1000, on 04 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Well, in a stalker an XL doesn't really give it a large boost to speed since its max engine is 315 and most people just run a standard 300 anyway. Its also mostly a missile and laser mech, so it doesn't need much tonnage anyway. So using an XL in that really doesn't give you much. Stalker also has rather bad torso twist ability, so it just shields by deadsiding rather than damage spreading.

Catapult has a very wide torso twist yaw and twists faster in general. Its large arm hitboxes, though not in a position to shield well, were big enough that when the mechs were rescaled based on volume the torso ended up rather small. An XL in a Catapult is very similar to an XL medium mech.

A lot of IS mechs can run XL engines rather well, but its a different type of damage spreading technique compared to just running a STD engine. Your goal when hit is to wiggle the torso back and fourth a bit to get damage spread to at least all 3 of the torso components rather than fully twisting the torso 90 degrees to catch it all in one side or shield arm.

Mechs like the Black Knight, Warhammer, Catapult, and Grasshopper are all in the upper levels of IS meta due to their ability to tank well enough while still bringing an XL. If one side seems like its taking more damage than the other try to focus damage more torwards the healthier side and the CT. With a standard you don't have to care about losing a side and all the firepower with it all too much, you're like an onion with layers that can be peeled off. The issue is that you get weaker each time unless you are running a full on deadside build. With an XL build you try to keep all that you have for as long as possible so that you are constantly fighting at full potential and with more firepower for at least as long as the standard engine build stayed alive. It works quite well for killing enemies off fast enough that they can't deal the same amount of damage to you that you could take in a STD build.

Its overall a little more complicated and risky compared to an STD build, but the high gains in firepower, cooling, or speed that these chassis gain by using an XL can far outweigh the tanking of a standard.

That's understandable. I run XL in a number of things, especially my Battlemasters, and Griffins, simply because the speed and firepower increase is worth the lost durability. Still, an XL catapult seems like an early death waiting to happen. To each their own I suppose.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sidefire, on 04 December 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

That's understandable. I run XL in a number of things, especially my Battlemasters, and Griffins, simply because the speed and firepower increase is worth the lost durability. Still, an XL catapult seems like an early death waiting to happen. To each their own I suppose.

I'd be more worried about an XL in the Battlemaster than a Catapult. Battlemaster is as wide as a barn. But yeah, guess just try out either build and see what you prefer.

[TercieI]

Pretty much always XL in a CPLT. They spread damage well if you know what you're doing.

[AncientRaig]

Dakota1000, on 04 December 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

I'd be more worried about an XL in the Battlemaster than a Catapult. Battlemaster is as wide as a barn. But yeah, guess just try out either build and see what you prefer.

An XL in a Battlemaster sounds like a bad idea, but doing almost 80kph in an 85 ton assault is incredibly useful. It's definitely not a typical "tank all the damage!" assault mech, but the speed and firepower of it makes it a scary thing to run into.

[Steel Raven]

I found the Catapult XL friendly enough for my K2 and Jester but both are long range builds. Others have used XL builds similar to yours with success but it comes down to play style. Many popular Warhammer builds use a XL but I do better with a STD.

[Navy Sixes]

Cat's a good IS heavy for an XL build, but it's conditional. If you're looking for a little more tonnage for weapons/ammo, but mostly want an XL to get a bigger, faster engine, then yes.

If, on the other hand, you intend to put in an XL so you can fit in another LRM, PPC, or more ammo/heatsinks, but still plan to top out at 60kph, then no. It's probably a bad build.

The Cat's ST's, while big, are (or at least used to be, last time I looked, but it's been a while and I understand they finally did some much-needed rescaling) largely concealed by the CT from the front, and by the big, boxy arms (ears) from the side. But only if you're moving and twisting and making accurate aiming difficult. The faster you're moving, the harder your STs will be to drill and so the more viable that XL will be.

If, on the other hand, you're planning on plodding around in the backfield with an underpowered, overarmed LRM or Sniper boat, you will probably die easy and often when the lights and Gauss rounds find you.

[Spheroid]

The 300XL is totally worth it in Catapults. That said twin AC-10 is better in Jagers and more fun in Riflemen.

I recommend running SRM builds. They are incredibly satisfying and brutal.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 December 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Depends on you mostly, but from experience a big XL usually allows you to protect your side torso far better than you can protect your CT with a slow STD of the same weight. Tonnage saved with XL can also go into weapons and heat sinks, and firepower usually allows you to protect yourself even better.

[Nightshade24]

TBH I run XL's on all my Catapults and I do quite well, for my LRM ones it allows me to evade enemies and catch up with my team and have better firepower and ammo to stay in the fight, for my snipers like the K2 it allows me to have the ability to fight back and evade enemies.TBH I do not feel the Catapult is a "STD or DIE" mech, It is up to you and the builds you want in it and what ever you feel is the most effective for you.

[Kuaron]

I run XL on some of mine.
STD does have a certain advantage if one has the weight. My preferred build is a C4 with 4ASRM6+2ML – it can fit a STD.
But if I want to mount LPLs, PPCs or heavy ballistics, I’d rather go XL than sacrifice speed. Speed is one of the most important talents of the CAT id differs it from the Stalker.
In conclusion, the first question hast:
Can you still mount a 280–300 engine and still be sufficiently armed?
Depending on the answer go STD or XL.

[TercieI]

Kuaron, on 05 December 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

Can you still mount a 280–300 engine and still be sufficiently armed?
Depending on the answer go STD or XL.

The answer to this question for a 65-ton mech is almost certainly "no." A few years ago, the XL/STD debate was interesting and nuanced. Nowadays with massive DPS in the game, it's almost always better to kill them faster than they can kill you and that means XL for more guns and more cooling almost without exception.

[Rhialto]

Thanks all, I finally built a new loadout with a STD300 which I like. Some won't agree with my ballistic choice but with the range quirk I can hit with small chance of crits at 250m or so and I can keep firing a lot without much heat issue. Oh and got AMS too.

[Kuaron]

Put the LPLs in the high mounted arms, from there they'll hit more often.

The rest of it... could work, try it.

[Warglbargl]

Rhialto, on 05 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

Thanks all, I finally built a new loadout with a STD300 which I like. Some won't agree with my ballistic choice but with the range quirk I can hit with small chance of crits at 250m or so and I can keep firing a lot without much heat issue. Oh and got AMS too.

Better off running that sort of build with a standard engine on a C1.

You lose the machine guns, but gain jumpjets.