37 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

The proposed changes to mech leveling are interesting and possibly a step in the right direction, though they could easily still screw it all up with excessive grind or poorly thought out limitations, still I'm trying to stay positive.

That said it's a real shame they aren't taking this opportunity to scrap "consumables" and do them right. I've posted it before but it bears repeating; making things like strikes and uavs magic skill cards you pull out of your mechs arse was one of the games biggest blunders. Coolant and UAVs should have always been pieces of equipment that took up crit slots and weight in mechs with the latter restricted to specific chassis designed for IW and recon roles. Part of the games long standing problem with it's utter lack of meaningful "role warfare" has been a complete lack of meaningful kit for roles not focused on killing things directly. If all specialized equipment amounts to are a couple bits you toss in as an after thought and some magic cards every single chassis can carry then there's never any incentive to build something that doesn't just prioritize it's own weapons.

The rough ideas I've bandied about over the years for this equipment have been:

UAV's requiring a launcher/storage device that takes up crit space and half a ton, if the section it's in is destroyed before the UAV is used then the UAV cannot be used that match. This equipment is restricted to torso segments and either only certain mechs can equip them or they are substantially less effective on mechs not designed to carry them. The goal being to increase the value of chassis designed for IW and scouting, many of which are considered terrible right now, by giving them a reason to exist. Not every vehicle on the battlefield is a main battle tank and not every mech is supposed to be all about firepower, this was the design goal PGI initially promised all the way back when the Raven first debuted but has since virtually abandoned.


Coolant Tanks, small and large versions, should likewise be equipment that take up critspace and minimal weight. I also feel they should have the downside of possibly rupturing and causing internal damage to their location if destroyed while full.

The trade offs created by these changes (for both the coolant and the UAVs) both open up the possibility of making them more effective, and also add some actual thought to their incorporation into a build. Right now I toss coolant and UAVs on every single mech I build and tic the auto-refill button and never think of them again, I've done this for years because there's simply never been anything more to their use.

Air and Artillery Strikes are an even bigger mess in their current state I've always felt. Magic free damage cards every mech can carry that have been all over the map balance wise from totally useless to spammable death.

Strikes should be tied into the command console and TAG systems in my view. Mechs with the CC (or the clan Computer of sufficient size) should be able to designate a Strike target via their maps (by choosing target location on the battlemap) allowing them to take advantage of true stand-off fire but requiring good target location info from their scouts. Meanwhile Recon mechs could call in strikes by painting a target area with TAG for a few seconds. Enable the strike (via the same button used now which switches TAG from LRM mode to Strike mode just like ecm switches modes) then hold target over a point on the ground for a couple seconds to call in the strike. This both puts a drawback on Strikes that allows them to be made more effective while remaining balanced and eliminates the arcadey spammability their instant-use mechanic has always given them.

These are of course all just rough ideas, the ultimate point being that consumables take what should be some of the most important kit for recon role warfare and relegate them to magic trading cards we toss into every single build without any thought. Of course PGI wouldn't be able to rake in microtransactions off them anymore if such changes were made so it's unlikely to ever happen, but meh.

[cazidin]

They could, actually, and simply become limited by CD or to 1-2 match only.

[Wecx]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

The proposed changes to mech leveling are interesting and possibly a step in the right direction, though they could easily still screw it all up with excessive grind or poorly thought out limitations, still I'm trying to stay positive.

That said it's a real shame they aren't taking this opportunity to scrap "consumables" and do them right. I've posted it before but it bears repeating; making things like strikes and uavs magic skill cards you pull out of your mechs arse was one of the games biggest blunders. Coolant and UAVs should have always been pieces of equipment that took up crit slots and weight in mechs with the latter restricted to specific chassis designed for IW and recon roles. Part of the games long standing problem with it's utter lack of meaningful "role warfare" has been a complete lack of meaningful kit for roles not focused on killing things directly. If all specialized equipment amounts to are a couple bits you toss in as an after thought and some magic cards every single chassis can carry then there's never any incentive to build something that doesn't just prioritize it's own weapons.

The rough ideas I've bandied about over the years for this equipment have been:

UAV's requiring a launcher/storage device that takes up crit space and half a ton, if the section it's in is destroyed before the UAV is used then the UAV cannot be used that match. This equipment is restricted to torso segments and either only certain mechs can equip them or they are substantially less effective on mechs not designed to carry them. The goal being to increase the value of chassis designed for IW and scouting, many of which are considered terrible right now, by giving them a reason to exist. Not every vehicle on the battlefield is a main battle tank and not every mech is supposed to be all about firepower, this was the design goal PGI initially promised all the way back when the Raven first debuted but has since virtually abandoned.


Coolant Tanks, small and large versions, should likewise be equipment that take up critspace and minimal weight. I also feel they should have the downside of possibly rupturing and causing internal damage to their location if destroyed while full.

The trade offs created by these changes (for both the coolant and the UAVs) both open up the possibility of making them more effective, and also add some actual thought to their incorporation into a build. Right now I toss coolant and UAVs on every single mech I build and tic the auto-refill button and never think of them again, I've done this for years because there's simply never been anything more to their use.

Air and Artillery Strikes are an even bigger mess in their current state I've always felt. Magic free damage cards every mech can carry that have been all over the map balance wise from totally useless to spammable death.

Strikes should be tied into the command console and TAG systems in my view. Mechs with the CC (or the clan Computer of sufficient size) should be able to designate a Strike target via their maps (by choosing target location on the battlemap) allowing them to take advantage of true stand-off fire but requiring good target location info from their scouts. Meanwhile Recon mechs could call in strikes by painting a target area with TAG for a few seconds. Enable the strike (via the same button used now which switches TAG from LRM mode to Strike mode just like ecm switches modes) then hold target over a point on the ground for a couple seconds to call in the strike. This both puts a drawback on Strikes that allows them to be made more effective while remaining balanced and eliminates the arcadey spammability their instant-use mechanic has always given them.

These are of course all just rough ideas, the ultimate point being that consumables take what should be some of the most important kit for recon role warfare and relegate them to magic trading cards we toss into every single build without any thought. Of course PGI wouldn't be able to rake in microtransactions off them anymore if such changes were made so it's unlikely to ever happen, but meh.

If UAV didn't weight maybe a couple pounds i'd agree.

[Quxudica]

cazidin, on 05 December 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

They could, actually, and simply become limited by CD or to 1-2 match only.

That doesn't really address the problem, namely that what should be part of the kit for non-assault role mechs have been hijacked by a magic card system. Also their current implementation reduces the thought put into equipping them to virtually nil. There's no interesting trade offs, positive or negative, to incorporating them into a build. A Mech without consumables is strictly worse than one with them and every single mech can bring every single type.

Quote

If UAV didn't weight maybe a couple pounds i'd agree.

To start with, the real life Predator Drone operated by the US weights between .5 to 1 tonne depending on it's load and I'd wager the UAV in MWO is actually bigger than that thing. That aside however it's not about realism, it's about fleshing out a lackluster mechanic to increase the variety and depth of gameplay.

Edited by Quxudica, 05 December 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[cazidin]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

That doesn't really address the problem, namely that what should be part of the kit for non-assault role mechs have been hijacked by a magic card system. Also their current implementation reduces the thought put into equipping them to virtually nil. There's no interesting trade offs, positive or negative, to incorporating them into a build. A Mech without consumables is strictly worse than one with them and every single mech can bring every single type.

Fair points, and if this system is logical and not determined by the dartboard of destiny™ that I stole from PGI then it should limit the amount of skills you can unlock, effectively giving mechs a level cap. Otherwise, aside from hard points which don't really matter for Clan mechs, you often have little incentive to try a different chassis out for many of them. With a level cap, even if you bought the exact same model, you could level it as say a ballistic mech instead of an energy mech, hard points permitting, of course.

[Lyoto Machida]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

That doesn't really address the problem, namely that what should be part of the kit for non-assault role mechs have been hijacked by a magic card system. Also their current implementation reduces the thought put into equipping them to virtually nil. There's no interesting trade offs, positive or negative, to incorporating them into a build. A Mech without consumables is strictly worse than one with them and every single mech can bring every single type.

There's no interesting trade off to modules either.

Would be nice to see something like AC10: +10% range/+15% heat or something. Or Radar Deprivation: same as now but -10% heat sink efficiency due to "stealth coating/cooling reasons." Personally, Radar Dep should go but that's a story for another time.

Instead, every module is a no-brainer...

[El Bandito]

Consumables stay? Then Escort mode is a bust from inception. Since the Atlas is gonna travel in a very predictable route, a few well placed strikes will wreck it.

[Y E O N N E]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

To start with, the real life Predator Drone operated by the US weights between .5 to 1 tonne depending on it's load and I'd wager the UAV in MWO is actually bigger than that thing. That aside however it's not about realism, it's about fleshing out a lackluster mechanic to increase the variety and depth of gameplay.

For what the UAV does in MWO, all you'd need is a slightly larger than average quad-copter.

[Spheroid]

Why would they go away? They are a c-bill sink and working as designed.

[Shadowomega1]

At its heavies the UAV in game has to be between 50 to 100 lbs, as it is smaller than the laser aperture on a mech.

[Quxudica]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 December 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

For what the UAV does in MWO, all you'd need is a slightly larger than average quad-copter.

Shadowomega1, on 05 December 2016 - 08:27 PM, said:

At its heavies the UAV in game has to be between 50 to 100 lbs, as it is smaller than the laser aperture on a mech.

I could counter argue this but I'll just reiterate the point isn't realism, it's fleshing out an underdeveloped game mechanic.

Spheroid, on 05 December 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Why would they go away? They are a c-bill sink and working as designed.

It's a waste of potential for what could be interesting mechanics. More could be done.

[Jingseng]

Well, in TT and lore, coolant flush came from special support vehicles. In MWO, it's a magical fairy button.

I'd rather have capturable locations on a battle field with coolant, artillery, radar ping effects. But that generally requires a much longer battle and larger numbers to be worthwhile.

Alternatively, just restrict it to such a system in FW only; there isn't a lot of incentive to use consumables in QP anyway.

that said, i could see them adding the ability to use them in a skill tree. with options for number of uses per match and cooldown speed.

[VitriolicViolet]

El Bandito, on 05 December 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

Consumables stay? Then Escort mode is a bust from inception. Since the Atlas is gonna travel in a very predictable route, a few well placed strikes will wreck it.

Since the Atlas is going to be heading in a predictable path i think strikes are the least of its concerns. They either need dynamic end zones for the atlas or at least basic AI or else it will be near impossible to stop it from dying. Any one whos played CW/FW knows how easy anything goes down when focused. At the least there should be no reward for actually killing the atlas, otherwise its gonna be suicide rushes to kill the atlas

[Nik Reaper]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

It's a waste of potential for what could be interesting mechanics. More could be done.

... Is this not the theme of MWO ?
Why expect that from all the things, some much larger and more impactful, this is one with a priority?
On the other hand if it's just adding to a long list.. oki moving along, nothing to see here.

[Davers]

No thanks. No need to gimp light mechs more by having them lose weight and crit slots to carry things like UAVs.

[Wecx]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

That doesn't really address the problem, namely that what should be part of the kit for non-assault role mechs have been hijacked by a magic card system. Also their current implementation reduces the thought put into equipping them to virtually nil. There's no interesting trade offs, positive or negative, to incorporating them into a build. A Mech without consumables is strictly worse than one with them and every single mech can bring every single type.


To start with, the real life Predator Drone operated by the US weights between .5 to 1 tonne depending on it's load and I'd wager the UAV in MWO is actually bigger than that thing. That aside however it's not about realism, it's about fleshing out a lackluster mechanic to increase the variety and depth of gameplay.

A predator drone is Twenty-seven feet long and sporting a 55-foot wingspan , UAV in MWO doesn't come close.
Good thing you didn't wager anything.

Edited by Wecx, 05 December 2016 - 10:00 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

Quxudica, on 05 December 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

To start with, the real life Predator Drone operated by the US weights between .5 to 1 tonne depending on it's load and I'd wager the UAV in MWO is actually bigger than that thing. That aside however it's not about realism, it's about fleshing out a lackluster mechanic to increase the variety and depth of gameplay.

I think you lost your wager, by a fair margin.

Wecx, on 05 December 2016 - 09:59 PM, said:

A predator drone is Twenty-seven feet long and sporting a 55-foot wingspan , UAV in MWO doesn't come close.
Good thing you didn't wager anything.

Feel the penny of hyperbole drop, from 200 feet straight up.

[Jingseng]

Change f3 third person camera to UAV mode. You control a UAV, your mech just sits there. Max range from mech, one use per match. Deals salt damage to light mech pilots (even though it'd still probably be them using it)

Edit: and you need to use UAV mode to designate air strikes and artillery.

Edited by Jingseng, 05 December 2016 - 10:38 PM.

[Cementi]

Im all for them being gone with everything else personally as I hate arty and air strikes.

However they likely will still be implemented but hopefully they are far down one of the trees so that they are not easy to get to.

[Vellron2005]

Removing consumables?

I cannot disagree more with this idea!

Using consumables, UAV in particular, was one of the biggest and coolest new things introduced in a MW game.. The UAV is the first "new" thing added to the franchise I've seen that did not exist in any other MW game, and a well placed UAV is one of the few tactical things you can do on the battlefield.

To remove them would be a great mistake..

I would like cool shot's to be more like in MW4, an integral part of EVERY mech, perhaps re-usable like jump jets, and arty/air strikes are also a great tactical asset.

They make us remember that mechs aren't the only thing on the battlefield, so at least until I have my own tanks, elementals and aerotech fighters, I'm keeping my artillery and air strikes, spank you very much!

Don't lobby to make this game even less immersive for the sake of making it more like just another shooter!