46 replies to this topic

[Sylow]

I also saw that problem with the system encouraging boating the very moment i looked at it. But i think the solution is much easier than what is discussed here.

I mean, the preview showed a number of "general" lines. Heat management, mobility, durability, along with the other "small things". So defense mobility and utility can be skilled freely. What i would change would be to dispose of weapon specific lines. Why not simply have things like a "precision" tree and a "rapid fire" tree, where the first one increases the range of all weapons and the second increases the fire rate of all weapons, no matter what you have on your mech?

I guess for balance reasons those should not be too massive, but being general (and without weapon specific versions available) they would avoid the problem described in this thread.

[TLBFestus]

1453 R, on 07 December 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

Why?

Why is it absolutely, hair-on-fire NECESSARY for Piranha to punish anyone who doesn't want to do the 1x AC/5 / 1x LRM-10 / 1x SRM-4 / 1x medium laser / 2x small laser / 2x machine gun / 1x flamer Idiot's Trail Mix weapons arrangement?

That's not a "balanced, all-range lore-friendly loadout". That is a horrible mess, it's not fun to play, and it's not particularly fun to fight.

Versatility should be its own reward. Building an actual multirole, multirange armament means you can engage in multiple roles and ranges. Building a brackety, self-contradictory mess that's constantly fighting itself and doesn't have anything but 'wrong' ranges or engagement types means you get punked until you stop doing that.

If you want to build a weapons-focused 'Mech, do that. Focus on a weapon. Or, alternatively, build your 'Mech for toughness or mobility or old-module-functionality like Seismic, things that are universally useful, if you want to make a Party Confetti machine.

Hey.......listen up buster. I used that as an EXAMPLE.

If you want one where a player only uses single weapons, then here you go;

"One of a Kind": when this mech has only a single weapon from multiple types, ie. 1 ER large laser, 1 AC/10, 1 LRM 15, 1 Flamer, the heat production of each weapon is reduced by 5%.

Happy?

Point is we don't know that much about the branches and what options we will get, will have to choose over other options.

[1453 R]

TLBFestus, on 07 December 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

Hey.......listen up buster. I used that as an EXAMPLE.

If you want one where a player only uses single weapons, then here you go;

"One of a Kind": when this mech has only a single weapon from multiple types, ie. 1 ER large laser, 1 AC/10, 1 LRM 15, 1 Flamer, the heat production of each weapon is reduced by 5%.

Happy?

Point is we don't know that much about the branches and what options we will get, will have to choose over other options.

Again...why?

I get that TT players hate boating. But why do we need to set up the skill system specifically to punish boat configurations with these weird, unintuitive ideas I see all over the place. The "[X] if you meet some baroque condition that amounts to 'my loadout is Trail Mix'" ideas, or the "Weapon skills are diluted/divided by the number of weapons of that type equipped" nonsense, or all these other MUH LOREZ things trying to offset the "boating bias" that is not any more inherent in the new system than it was in the existing system.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Boating is mandatory for competitive builds. You have to max out your single weapon type, which will probably be 2CLPL and 4-6 ERML for clan and 3 LPL and 6 ML for IS. Every gamer worth a crap is a Min Maxer.

Max your weapon skill tree I mean.

[Karl Streiger]

1453 R, on 07 December 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Again...why?

I get that TT players hate boating. But why do we need to set up the skill system specifically to punish boat configurations with these weird, unintuitive ideas I see all over the place. The "[X] if you meet some baroque condition that amounts to 'my loadout is Trail Mix'" ideas, or the "Weapon skills are diluted/divided by the number of weapons of that type equipped" nonsense, or all these other MUH LOREZ things trying to offset the "boating bias" that is not any more inherent in the new system than it was in the existing system.

The issue is not that TT players hate boating.

The issue is that PGI did decide to port values form a system and place it in their system.
The issue is that they did not port a ton of values that are necessary to keep in mind.

Hell - I make it as simple as possible.

• Take the single IS Large Laser for the Flea
  
• Take 2 Medium Laser for the Flea + Armor and mor Speed for the Flea instead

Compare their performance in TT and in MWO - a complete disparity -
because
only the "max" range, damage, tonnage, crits were copied but not the meaing.

The 2 Medium Laser deal 10dmg for two tons at 270m with better rate of fire and lower burn duration - by all means the better deal.

In TT however - you might fear the Flea with its single Large Laser much more. The missing range brackets grant the Large Laser a better precision. The 8dmg are able to break through most light armor (for example the Commando is a 3% kill with a Large Laser - where as the same Commando might take an average of 4 hits of Medium Lasers without any structural damage.

Boating or non Boating is not the issue of TT nor not TT is an issue of game balance.
And even after 5 years there is no real solution in sight - things might become even worse in the future.

[Evil Goof]

Khobai, on 06 December 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

So im a little concerned by the new skill trees and the effect its going to have on boating weapons.

Its going to be advantageous to take mechs that only use one type of weapon so you can
minimize the amount of points spent in the skill tree in the weapon categories. Mixed loadout mechs are going to be worse than ever once this skill tree goes live.

Also mechs that have more weapons of one type are going to be favored over mechs that have
less weapons of one type. A mech with 4 autocannons will get twice the bonus from AC skills as a mech with only 2 autocannons. So mechs with only 1-2 autocannons will fall out of favor.


The way I see it two things need to change:

1) skill tree needs to make allowances for mixed loadout mechs. the easiest way to do this is probably to let mixed loadout mechs keep some of their existing weapon quirks.

2) bonuses from the skill trees need to be divided by the number of weapons of that type the mech takes. that way you always get the same total bonus regardless of whether you have 4 autocannons or 2 autocannons. For example, an atlas with a single AC20 should get the same total bonus from putting points into autocannon skill that a jagermech with four autocannon 5s gets.

There is nothing wrong with boating weapons. If that is not your style or taste then don't do it.

[Davegt27]

to be honest I thought we where here to have fun playing a Mech game

when I first started I played over a month before I knew anything about skills and mastering
Mechs

I died a lot but also had a lot of fun

I just feel depressed about this whole change