8 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

Specifically, I like to refer to the scene around the 4 min mark, when the ShadowHawk walks out of the hanger for the first time.

I like to refer to the right, where we have some reference points. Mainly, the guy standing in-front of the hanger type structure. From that picture, we can guesstimate that its approximately 8-9 men tall based on using my mouse cursor as a ruler and stacking up.

Now, look back at the Shadowhawk sight line, you noticed that you are pretty much staring right at the top of the roof, meaning the SDH is pretty much the same height as the hanger on the right.

If you followed my thread about "BTech Ton is not Space Ton," both several people and myself have made calculations showing that battlemechs really aren't as big as they are being scaled to be. For example, I did a re-scale of a tank based on the dimension we know of the M1 MBT, and found it to be about 67% of the size of an Atlas. An Atlas is 12 m, or about 7 human tall (and that's taking a conservative Asian man estimate... NA and by logic, space human are probably much taller). There is no way, a SDH is as tall as depicted.

(And someone did a volume calculation and found no significant differences between a real world tank and a battlemech)

The problem with improper scaling like this one, is that although you create the illusion of piloting this awesome giant machine, you also take away from the immersion of what's like to be truly inside a battlemech. The threat seems insignificant. The battles become one dimensional toward fellow mechs as all other combat vehicles seem that much more insignificant, so there's not really a totality of experience.

Another minor point, is on left, there are a myriad of APCs. While I don't find much problem with the height, as they are typically 2~2.5m tall and seem to share the proper proportion comparing to the people right next to them, the length seems really off... almost like they were small humvees instead of an actual APCs, which we know from real world example to be 5-6 meters at least.

The game is still in pre-alpha, so there's a real chance to change the trend that has gone on since Mechwarrior 3. We can bring back that multi-dimensional experience where mechs are part of the battlefield, instead of the only part of the battlefield. So how about it, PGI? Make proper scaling great again!

[Mole]

Stop trying to apply real world logic to battletech. It's not good for your sanity. Suspension of Disbelief, bruh. It's a must when playing with science fiction titles.

[process]

I don't feel too strongly about mech scale, but hopefully MW5 doesn't carry MWO's inter-chassis-scaling baggage. As a single player game, there should not be any major size differences due to multiplayer performance.

[razenWing]

Mole, on 06 December 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Stop trying to apply real world logic to battletech. It's not good for your sanity. Suspension of Disbelief, bruh. It's a must when playing with science fiction titles.

This is not dealing with real world "logic" (i think the word is "physics")

This is merely appealing to the aesthetic of the game. How the game plays, how the game feels, how the game interacts.

Or do you get discouraged as soon as you see numbers? (and one idiot that agree with you)

[Mole]

razenWing, on 06 December 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

This is not dealing with real world "logic" (i think the word is "physics")

This is merely appealing to the aesthetic of the game. How the game plays, how the game feels, how the game interacts.

Or do you get discouraged as soon as you see numbers? (and one idiot that agree with you)

Okay, not sure where the hostility is coming from. But. No, I don't disagree with your math. I've pointed out before that an Abrams weighs roughly 62 metric tons. If it were on legs it would be classified as a Heavy 'mech. Yet we are somehow expected to believe that a 20 ton Locust is bigger than that tank. That a 'mech of equal tonnage towers above buildings. 'Mechs either need to weigh a lot more or need to be much smaller if we're going for real world accuracy here. But we're not. Battlemechs have always been depicted as enormous. That is the tone that Battletech and every Mechwarrior title to date has set. The math doesn't check out. This is where you have to have some suspension of disbelief. 'Mechs are supposed to be towering monstrosities. If you change that feeling then it quite simply no longer feels like Mechwarrior.

Edited by Mole, 06 December 2016 - 02:55 PM.

[razenWing]

Mole, on 06 December 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Okay, not sure where the hostility is coming from. But. No, I don't disagree with your math. I've pointed out before that an Abrams weighs roughly 62 metric tons. If it were on legs it would be classified as a Heavy 'mech. Yet we are somehow expected to believe that a 20 ton Locust is bigger than that tank. That a 'mech of equal tonnage towers above buildings. 'Mechs either need to weigh a lot more or need to be much smaller if we're going for real world accuracy here. But we're not. Battlemechs have always been depicted as enormous. That is the tone that Battletech and every Mechwarrior title to date has set. The math doesn't check out. This is where you have to have some suspension of disbelief. 'Mechs are supposed to be towering monstrosities. If you change that feeling then it quite simply no longer feels like Mechwarrior.

Sorry, on edge today for some reason.

That's very reasonable in terms of game appeal. I thought about that too. But we tried that for few straight games now. I feel like modern gaming should be have more tension and more complexity.

Like I remember in MW4 where you have a patrol mission where you have to kill like 50 hover crafts before you fight a big bad SMN. But, imagine if those hover crafts pose a legitimate threat to your well being. (Or at least, perceive it as such)

I personally think that's a more exciting game. (Cause otherwise, that mission is just you go waste 8-10 min stomp all hover crafts before the real fight)

[Mole]

razenWing, on 06 December 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Sorry, on edge today for some reason.

That's very reasonable in terms of game appeal. I thought about that too. But we tried that for few straight games now. I feel like modern gaming should be have more tension and more complexity.

Like I remember in MW4 where you have a patrol mission where you have to kill like 50 hover crafts before you fight a big bad SMN. But, imagine if those hover crafts pose a legitimate threat to your well being. (Or at least, perceive it as such)

I personally think that's a more exciting game. (Cause otherwise, that mission is just you go waste 8-10 min stomp all hover crafts before the real fight)

As far as I know, were this tabletop those hovercraft actually COULD pose a real threat to a battlemech.

[Karl Streiger]

Mole, on 06 December 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Okay, not sure where the hostility is coming from. But. No, I don't disagree with your math. I've pointed out before that an Abrams weighs roughly 62 metric tons. If it were on legs it would be classified as a Heavy 'mech. Yet we are somehow expected to believe that a 20 ton Locust is bigger than that tank. That a 'mech of equal tonnage towers above buildings. 'Mechs either need to weigh a lot more or need to be much smaller if we're going for real world accuracy here. But we're not. Battlemechs have always been depicted as enormous. That is the tone that Battletech and every Mechwarrior title to date has set. The math doesn't check out. This is where you have to have some suspension of disbelief. 'Mechs are supposed to be towering monstrosities. If you change that feeling then it quite simply no longer feels like Mechwarrior.

Nothing wrong about the "suspension of disbelief" but the scale is still an issue.
When your Mech is bigger than the hanger this is bad, if the scale is to tiny that a Mech doesn't fit into the cockpit it's bad either.

But add the strange "look and feel" of MWO compare the IceFerret with the Adder. Although the IceFerret is much faster, you feel that the Adder has more speed. Simple because of the location of your cockpit.
There is also the Picture of two catapracts standing cockpit to cockpit and the range finder says 12m

Not to mention the scaling of weapons, and arms. The Arm of said cataphract is bigger as the complete Locust.
I really hope they spend much more time in making the weapon models looking better on their mechs. And keep the scale on a sane level.




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[MiniFish]

process, on 06 December 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I don't feel too strongly about mech scale, but hopefully MW5 doesn't carry MWO's inter-chassis-scaling baggage. As a single player game, there should not be any major size differences due to multiplayer performance.

I wouldn't count on that, really. i bet they'd be reusing assets, and i think they're most likely to shift MWO to Unreal as well, since Russ did talk about the team actually considering a game engine upgrade in past townhalls, and once both MWO and MW5 share the same base it'll be easy to bounce assets around and thus save development costs and time.

so yeah, proper overall scaling by comparing mechs to environment props, maybe, but that size difference due to MP reasons is most likely staying