32 replies to this topic

[50 50]

adamts01, on 08 December 2016 - 02:39 AM, said:

Do we know if there's an option to get real jump jets on this new skill tree?

Not too sure what you mean by real jump jets but there was the specific example of jump jet vectoring which would be the first jump jet skill/module/bonus I think we've ever seen. There is potentially more.

Duke Nedo, on 08 December 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

That said, I'd rank them: ZEU-9S > ZEU-5S/6S > AWS-9M > AWS-8Q/8R > ZEU-6T/9S2 > VTR-9S/9K/9B > AWS-8V/8T

Is that for hard point combinations and positions?
If I go and look at the descriptions on Sarna, the Zeus was viewed as an assault that could skirmish. (Faster but with mid to low firepower/survivability).
The Awesome is viewed as the tanky damage dealer and the Victor the mobile brawler.
Based on those descriptions alone, access to the different skill trees could be restricted to emphasise these attributes so the mechs fill a particular role (or style of play if you will) on the battle field.
For example:
The Awesome could get the full weapons and survival tree but it gets nothing in mobility or operations.
The Zeus could get full access to the mobility tree, less in survival, operations and weapons.
The Victor may not get any survivability but gets decent operations, mobility and weapons.
(Just a thought process and not definitive)
Based on that sort of access to the skills, would denial to skills work better to balance the mechs?

[Autologus]

I hope the underperforming mechs are not left out in the cold, I would hate it if they make my beloved Commando any worse. I have been playing since closed beta and would have to move on if the Commando is killed.

[Duke Nedo]

50 50, on 08 December 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Is that for hard point combinations and positions?

That rank is just my over all assessment from playing them, largely dictated by which builds they can house, their hardpoint placement, the hitbox geometry and the quirks.

I rank the Zeu-9S first because the hardpoints are a bit higher up than you first might think, it has a high waist and short arms. It used to be much more compact and have great hitboxes and had good survivability quirks + energy quirks. It can fit 3x LPL + 3x MPL/ML + a large XL with good enough hitboxes and structure quirks to support it.

The Zeu-5S/6S can fit (if I remember correctly now) either 3x LPL+1x AC10 or 3x LL+Gauss. Quite solid performers for the same reason as the 9S but the builds it can fit are not as good.

The Aws-9M is an old time favorite of mine. It runs surprisingly well with a large XL. I run mine now with either 3x LPL + 3x MPL, or 2x ERPPC + 1x LPL + 3x ML. It has worse hitboxes than the Zeu-9S and a bit lower HPs dragging it down.

The Aws-8Q is excellent quirks but suffers from bad hitboxes together with a low engine cap. You are forced to use a STD300, greatly reducing its potential. I run mine with 3x PPC + 4x MPL, thanks to the quirks it can ignore GH and volley 3x PPC.

The Aws-8R same as above. Great quirks, great LRM boat but I avoid LRMs so it's collecting dust. The few times I have used it to exploit some event it has racked up great numbers though.

The Zeu-6T/9S2 are dragged down by too few/unfocused hardpoints to house good builds. I got good stats when levelling the loyalty Zeus with 2x LPL+1x Gauss + 2x SRM4 but that must have been a whim of chance because it's not a good build.

Victors are suffering from a combination of large STs and few hardpoints. That forces it to use big heavy weapons with short range and mixed loadout to reach the damage output baseline and then must equip an XL with too little ST structure and/or top speed. Lack of functional JJ doesn't help. They are just trapped in a bad spot and need significant ST bufffs. It's agility is great though.

To me the AWS-8T/8V are the worst assaults in the game. Slow due to engine cap, large geometry and hardpoints/quirk combiations that doesn't really give it any relief. At least the VTRs have agility that helps them survive a bit, these guys are just immobile toothless ducks.

[50 50]

Autologus, on 08 December 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

I hope the underperforming mechs are not left out in the cold, I would hate it if they make my beloved Commando any worse. I have been playing since closed beta and would have to move on if the Commando is killed.

I would suggest that that is not the intention. However, the Commando has been mentioned in another post as well as a favourite light. The pickings (at the moment) are very slim at that end of the weight spectrum but the questions I would ask of you are:

Why the Commando over say the Locust or the Spider?
What is the point of difference that made you select that mech and not one of the other lights?

[Oberost]

The real problem (at least for me) is how you balance right from the start the good clan mechs (which already had almost no quirks) with the rest, especially the IS ones. How is balanced the WHM with the good clan heavies? Because quirks...

And if as Russ said they are going to keep some of the quirks on the underdogs I wonder what are they going to do with the rest.

Invasion once again?

[50 50]

Duke Nedo, on 08 December 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

... Great Feedback....

So based on your analysis of the mechs, to level out the balance between those three chassis it might be a case of:
the ZEU-9S doesn't get the same level of survivability or operations so it's brought down a little. The VTRs get a bit more in those trees to bring them up and mechs like the AWS-8T/8V have the best survival or have increases in the infowar side which either evens out their value or increases their potential in a different role.

One of the things that was done in the MechWarrior RPG when building characters was to prioritize between different aspects of the character. The priority gave different levels of access to those character aspects, things like race, money, skills, attributes. Without other information about the system at this point it's all hypothetical, but a 1 to 5 rating across the 5 different skill areas might be how underperforming mechs are brought up, while the over performers are brought down without applying negative penalties or over compensating with BIGGER buffs.
(Relating that priority to the maximum skill level that can be purchased in those areas..... did that make sense?)

[Duke Nedo]

50 50, on 08 December 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

So based on your analysis of the mechs, to level out the balance between those three chassis it might be a case of:
the ZEU-9S doesn't get the same level of survivability or operations so it's brought down a little. The VTRs get a bit more in those trees to bring them up and mechs like the AWS-8T/8V have the best survival or have increases in the infowar side which either evens out their value or increases their potential in a different role.

One of the things that was done in the MechWarrior RPG when building characters was to prioritize between different aspects of the character. The priority gave different levels of access to those character aspects, things like race, money, skills, attributes. Without other information about the system at this point it's all hypothetical, but a 1 to 5 rating across the 5 different skill areas might be how underperforming mechs are brought up, while the over performers are brought down without applying negative penalties or over compensating with BIGGER buffs.
(Relating that priority to the maximum skill level that can be purchased in those areas..... did that make sense?)

The way to really properly integrate skills/modules and quirks in the same skill tree would have to be something along these lines. I think you'd need dynamic step heights for each ladder and you'd need to turn off some ladders for the best mechs.

The problem is that in order to tailor unique skill trees for every mech variant in the game it requires extremely good insight and long experience in game play at high level. As far as I know PGI doesn't have that, unfortunately, hence often bad balance calls. There is no automatic way to do it, you have to consider everything and weigh pros and cons with hardpoint types/numbers/placement, meta builds, geometry profile/STs/arms, agility/speed, JJ, ecm, game play styles etc etc.

I'd trust 3 of the most knowledgeable top players to be able to come up with a good set of trees together, but I I don't think PGI can pull it off. Definitely not within the time frame that was promised, so I guess they'll be backing down to more or less keeping the quirks and add a weak skill tree on top of that.

[QuantumButler]

FupDup, on 07 December 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

Past experience shows that when PGI says they're going to help the "dog" mechs, they either don't do anything or do something that is too small to make a difference.

I'll only believe it when I see it.

Or when they successfully make a trash robot competitive against top tier meta robots, the community bands together and shouts it down as being "OP" [See the 50% ballistic cooldown dragon] whereupon it gets nerfed back into the trash heap.

[50 50]

Oberost, on 08 December 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

The real problem (at least for me) is how you balance right from the start the good clan mechs (which already had almost no quirks) with the rest, especially the IS ones. How is balanced the WHM with the good clan heavies? Because quirks...

And if as Russ said they are going to keep some of the quirks on the underdogs I wonder what are they going to do with the rest.

Invasion once again?

Yeah, that's a challenge because of the differences with the tech and starts to involve other things such as weapon stats, endo, ferro, DHS and XL. Balancing across tech needs to start with the equipment, I'm not sure it needs to be done at a skill level but that is not outside of the realms of possibility.

Anyway, the 80 ton competitor on the Clan side is the Gargoyle and it would be considered an underperformer, more because there are better assaults or better heavies to take on the Clan side of things. Nothing else in the 80 ton category to compare it with which makes it difficult. (It's an Assault trying to be a Medium)

I'm not sure where it would fit in compared to the Zeus, Victor and Awesome. It's a bit of a cross between all three I guess. Good mobility, not the best hard point placements, not very tough but it can pack a few weapons.

[QuantumButler]

50 50, on 08 December 2016 - 04:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure where it would fit in compared to the Zeus, Victor and Awesome. It's a bit of a cross between all three I guess. Good mobility, not the best hard point placements, not very tough but it can pack a few weapons.

On the same trash heap as those other really bad assaults generally.

The only ones listed there that are worthwhile today are the awesomes due to their megaquirks [the 8R is IMO hands down the best assault LRM boat in the game, the 8Q and 9M are very formidable PPC boats, none of them are actually good at traditional "assault" roles of leading pushes though]

[Autologus]

I like the Commando because it is a tanky little humanoid mech that most people regard as a worthless mech and for the most part ignore on the battlefield much to their detriment. If speced right and in the right hands it can be a terror. It is a mech that is difficult to make perform well and that is why I like it, it is extremely fun to play and very rewarding to see the Commando out perform many heavies and assaults in the match. Pretty much it is a matter of preference and dedication to the chassis. Mainly because I like it and it brings me much joy to pilot.

[Autologus]

What makes the Gargoyle under perform is the lack of tonnage available for weapons and its very low slung arms. It is not a bad chassis and the speed is fun but those low slung arms suck. I have the chassis mastered and have had a lot of fun with some builds but if you are trying to top a ridge you are killed before you can bring any weapons to bare. Bring the arms from the waist to mid torso and it is a different performing mech.

[adamts01]

50 50, on 08 December 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Not too sure what you mean by real jump jets but there was the specific example of jump jet vectoring which would be the first jump jet skill/module/bonus I think we've ever seen. There is potentially more.

Jump Jets as in Jump Jets, not our current Hover Jets. They nerfed them to the ground on most mechs to stop the rampant pop-tarting. What they should have done is left the mobility but amplified the inaccuracy when flying and applied it to any time you mech is off the ground. I just want real jump jets, and viable lights, and a reason to take lights, and something more than death match, and for Russ to say "**** it, I quit."