122 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

Yellonet, on 10 December 2016 - 05:57 AM, said:

CLANS OP PLS BUFF LRMS

[Yellonet]

Bandilly, on 10 December 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

IIC
IIC
IIC

I know, but IIC becomes Lic in the title, 2C is better.

[Revis Volek]

Bombast, on 10 December 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

It's easier to list the times and people who don't shave leg armor, then the times and people that do.

and if you shave leg armor you just play behind stuff that covers your legs, its really a moot point to try to leg something that as as much leg armor as it has ST armor and ST's slow it down like a leg but also takes weapons with it.

[Mcgral18]

Should be good, but shouldn't be overwhelming.

KDK3 kinda set a high bar

The only real unique builds are low mounted and short range (LB40 SRM16-24)\



Apparently I'm not getting mine until January injection...oh well

[Tordin]

Maaaaybe. It will be more vulnerable from flanking than say, its pure Clan counterpart, the Warhawk. It might be a better "head-on" like its IS little, older brother though. Runs in the family

AnTi90d, on 10 December 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

QFT.

I make a point to remember the names of the few people whose legs I've sunk an alpha into and they didn't go cherry or just pop.

IRL, I don't care for dark meat.. but in MWO, legs are tasty AF.

First baby steps towards real mechs, poor thing

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

I am predicting this will be a 8/10 mech for it's weight. I still can't figure out the reason anyone's comparing this to the IS Marauder, I have that too btw and I love them for their weight class.

The only issue I have, is some variants are too samey, I was hoping quirks might address that but we'll see. I feel that the patch notes showed the IIC8 having +15 missle cooldown because this decision came AFTER the agreed quirks at the table (hence it was the only quirk in the document). If true, minor quirks will still come.

Don't forget that document is a change list.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 December 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

The IIC is an 85 ton Assault mech, so it should probably beat the IS version in a straight-up fight.

I was going to point this out. You are comparing a 75 ton heavy to an 85 ton Assault so of course the 85 ton Assault should be more powerful. However that might not really be the case when you consider the Marauder IIC will be larger and have no quirks. Those structure bonuses on the IS marauder will go a long way toward making up for having less overall armor too.

My concern about the Marauder IIC is that they will saddle it was a "Huge" movement profile and Direwolf-like torso twist speeds and firing arcs which will leave it sluggish as hell despite being able to run 82 kph with a 400XL engine.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Viktor Drake, on 10 December 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

I was going to point this out. You are comparing a 75 ton heavy to an 85 ton Assault so of course the 85 ton Assault should be more powerful. However that might not really be the case when you consider the Marauder IIC will be larger and have no quirks. Those structure bonuses on the IS marauder will go a long way toward making up for having less overall armor too.

My concern about the Marauder IIC is that they will saddle it was a "Huge" movement profile and Direwolf-like torso twist speeds and firing arcs which will leave it sluggish as hell despite being able to run 82 kph with a 400XL engine.

after quirks are factored in the IS marauder and the Marauder IIC have the same armor and internal structure.

[Y E O N N E]

Kaeb Odellas, on 10 December 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

The IIC is an 85 ton Assault mech, so it should probably beat the IS version in a straight-up fight.

A fair point, but I would mention that it doesn't usually work the other way around for IS 85 tonners. A Timberwolf will usually beat a Stalker or a Battlemaster in a straight-up fight. It usually takes a pretty niche environment for either of those to really come into their own (i.e. ERLL sniping, but still probably vulnerable to PPC+Gauss from the TBR).

Unless what you are calling a "straight up fight" is basically two 'Mechs just circling each other. Then it could go either way. I'm calling a "straight up fight" to be two 'Mechs dropped into an arena and told to locate and destroy each other.

[Bombast]

Snazzy Dragon, on 10 December 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

after quirks are factored in the IS marauder and the Marauder IIC have the same armor and internal structure.

They also have pretty much the same top speed (The Marauder wins by a measly 1kph before skills).

[Brizna]

It's going to be solid and terminate Warhawk, but it won't be neither the best mech or assault mech.

[Mechteric]

Kodiak will still beat it

[Y E O N N E]

Bombast, on 10 December 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

They also have pretty much the same top speed (The Marauder wins by a measly 1kph before skills).

And that's with the inefficient isXL360. The optimal XLs on an IS MAD are 350 (81.3 kph) or 325 (75.5 kph). The MAD-IIC gets almost the same empty tonnage on an XL400 as the IS MAD on an XL 350 (33 tons with cES+cFF vs. 35 tons with isES, minor armor tweaking on both). With how much lighter my weapons are going to be, the missing 2 tons on the MAD-IIC is nothing.

To use my favorite variants as an example:

MAD-IIC-B:
5x cMPL + 2x cSRM6A (300 rounds) + 4x JJ and 20x cDHS at 82.0 kph

versus

MAD-5D:
4x MPL + 1x LPL + 2xSRM6A (200 rounds) + 3xJJ and 17x DHS. at 81.3 kph.

Hmmm...and dropping the XL400 to an XL395 makes me go from a 0.7 kph advantage to a 0.4 kph deficit while freeing up two more tons for heat-sinks. Yeah, IS MAD is gonna die. At 75.5 kph, the IIC is just slaughtering the original with all the tons it has freed up.

[Bombast]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 December 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Spoiler

And that's with the inefficient isXL360. The optimal XLs on an IS MAD are 350 (81.3 kph) or 325 (75.5 kph). The MAD-IIC gets almost the same empty tonnage on an XL400 as the IS MAD on an XL 350 (33 tons with cES+cFF vs. 35 tons with isES, minor armor tweaking on both). With how much lighter my weapons are going to be, the missing 2 tons on the MAD-IIC is nothing.

To use my favorite variants as an example:

MAD-IIC-B:
5x cMPL + 2x cSRM6A (300 rounds) + 4x JJ and 20x cDHS at 82.0 kph

versus

MAD-5D:
4x MPL + 1x LPL + 2xSRM6A (200 rounds) + 3xJJ and 17x DHS. at 81.3 kph.

Hmmm...and dropping the XL400 to an XL395 makes me go from a 0.7 kph advantage to a 0.4 kph deficit while freeing up two more tons for heat-sinks. Yeah, IS MAD is gonna die. At 75.5 kph, the IIC is just slaughtering the original with all the tons it has freed up.

Yup. I understand that heavier mechs should have more firepower and armor... but these IICs really highlight how lopsided Clan/IS tech can get. The Marauder barely claws it way up to the Marauder IICs level on some metric through quirks, only for the IIC to make all that meaningless because Clan construction materials and more efficient equipment sizing leaves it in the dust. The IIC runs faster and cooler and can hit harder and at longer ranges.

Just kind of depressing.

Edited by Bombast, 10 December 2016 - 06:00 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Bombast, on 10 December 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Yup. I understand that heavier mechs should have more firepower and armor... but these IICs really highlight how lopsided Clan/IS tech can get. The Marauder barely claws it way up to the Marauder IICs level on some metric through quirks, only for the IIC to make all that meaningless because Clan construction materials and more efficient equipment sizing make it all meaningless. The IIC runs faster and cooler and can hit harder and at longer ranges.

Just kind of depressing.

There's IS tech to close the gap but PGI won't/can't implement it. :>

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yeonne Greene, on 10 December 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

And that's with the inefficient isXL360. The optimal XLs on an IS MAD are 350 (81.3 kph) or 325 (75.5 kph). The MAD-IIC gets almost the same empty tonnage on an XL400 as the IS MAD on an XL 350 (33 tons with cES+cFF vs. 35 tons with isES, minor armor tweaking on both). With how much lighter my weapons are going to be, the missing 2 tons on the MAD-IIC is nothing.

To use my favorite variants as an example:

MAD-IIC-B:
5x cMPL + 2x cSRM6A (300 rounds) + 4x JJ and 20x cDHS at 82.0 kph

versus

MAD-5D:
4x MPL + 1x LPL + 2xSRM6A (200 rounds) + 3xJJ and 17x DHS. at 81.3 kph.

Hmmm...and dropping the XL400 to an XL395 makes me go from a 0.7 kph advantage to a 0.4 kph deficit while freeing up two more tons for heat-sinks. Yeah, IS MAD is gonna die. At 75.5 kph, the IIC is just slaughtering the original with all the tons it has freed up.

However your not telling the entire story.

First quirk-wise the Marauder gets -10% to Energy Heat generation. Then you have to factor in that the IS MPL's are 33% cooler than the Clan MPLs plus that IS LPL is only producing 1 more heat than a Clan MPL. Total heat from Energy weapons is 30 heat for the Clans, 23 heat for the IS mech minus an additional 10% so really around 21 heat generated for the IS mech. This means that the IS mech is roughly 30% cooler running that that Clan mech. It we take 17 DHS and multiple their effectiveness by 30%, that gives the IS Marauder about a 22 DHS equivalency meaning it is actually cooler running despite having 3 DHS less than the Clan Marauder IIC.

Then you have to factor that the IS weapons have significantly lower beam duration which means they fire faster and are easier to concentrate their damage with.

Then you have a 10% bonus to the Missile Cooldown and velocity on the IS Marauder vs the Clan Marauder IIC so the advantage goes to the IS Marauder in the Missile department as well.

Then there is the 25% bonus to the acceleration and deceleration and 15% bonus to turn rate that the IS Marauder has that the Clan Marauder IIC won't have which means that out the gate the IS Marauder has a significant mobility advantage.

Then there is the fact that the IS Marauder is a smaller target.

Then lastly the structure bonuses that IS Marauder gets will tend to offset the armor bonus the Clan Marauder IIC gets making them roughly just as tanky.

Clan's of course get a bit of a range advantage and have the XL engine advantage to offset ALL OF THESE OTHER FACTORS hehe, but but lets be honest and admit that the advantage, if any, the Clan Marauder IIC will have is alot smaller than you or most people tend to make out.

Also we are comparing a 85 ton mech verses a 75 ton mech so by all rights, the Clan Marauder IIC should kick the snot out of a IS Marauder except as I just pointed out, it doesn't, not really.

[jjm1]

Viktor Drake, on 10 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

However your not telling the entire story.

First quirk-wise the Marauder gets -10% to Energy Heat generation. Then you have to factor in that the IS MPL's are 33% cooler than the Clan MPLs plus that IS LPL is only producing 1 more heat than a Clan MPL. Total heat from Energy weapons is 30 heat for the Clans, 23 heat for the IS mech minus an additional 10% so really around 21 heat generated for the IS mech. This means that the IS mech is roughly 30% cooler running that that Clan mech. It we take 17 DHS and multiple their effectiveness by 30%, that gives the IS Marauder about a 22 DHS equivalency meaning it is actually cooler running despite having 3 DHS less than the Clan Marauder IIC.

Then you have to factor that the IS weapons have significantly lower beam duration which means they fire faster and are easier to concentrate their damage with.

Then you have a 10% bonus to the Missile Cooldown and velocity on the IS Marauder vs the Clan Marauder IIC so the advantage goes to the IS Marauder in the Missile department as well.

Then there is the 25% bonus to the acceleration and deceleration and 15% bonus to turn rate that the IS Marauder has that the Clan Marauder IIC won't have which means that out the gate the IS Marauder has a significant mobility advantage.

Then there is the fact that the IS Marauder is a smaller target.

Then lastly the structure bonuses that IS Marauder gets will tend to offset the armor bonus the Clan Marauder IIC gets making them roughly just as tanky.

Clan's of course get a bit of a range advantage and have the XL engine advantage to offset ALL OF THESE OTHER FACTORS hehe, but but lets be honest and admit that the advantage, if any, the Clan Marauder IIC will have is alot smaller than you or most people tend to make out.

Also we are comparing a 85 ton mech verses a 75 ton mech so by all rights, the Clan Marauder IIC should kick the snot out of a IS Marauder except as I just pointed out, it doesn't, not really.

Same goes for WHK. Everyone calling it DOA just because they only look at hard-point count. The best clan mechs are the ones with less hard-points because they get some neat quirks that improve their efficiency and can lay down more DPS with less weapons. Exceptions are in ballistic assaults, where more is better.

I'll be pretty surprised if the MAD-IIC standard gets no quirks. Being an all energy assault puts it in a bit of a grey area where quirks give them purpose. Otherwise you may as will bring a lighter clan energy boat and play a better poke game.

[Snazzy Dragon]

I am thoroughly going to enjoy hosing the marauder iic with flamers, though, come to think of it..

[Mcgral18]

Snazzy Dragon, on 10 December 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

I am thoroughly going to enjoy hosing the marauder iic with flamers, though, come to think of it..

My issue will be finding the darn hitbox
There will be plenty of experimentation against basic robots


Most are not heat friendly, without fancy weapon groups

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 10 December 2016 - 06:29 PM, said:

Also we are comparing a 85 ton mech verses a 75 ton mech so by all rights, the Clan Marauder IIC should kick the snot out of a IS Marauder except as I just pointed out, it doesn't, not really.

Too bad that's a one-way street, though:

Yeonne Greene, on 10 December 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

A fair point, but I would mention that it doesn't usually work the other way around for IS 85 tonners. A Timberwolf will usually beat a Stalker or a Battlemaster in a straight-up fight. It usually takes a pretty niche environment for either of those to really come into their own (i.e. ERLL sniping, but still probably vulnerable to PPC+Gauss from the TBR).

Unless what you are calling a "straight up fight" is basically two 'Mechs just circling each other. Then it could go either way. I'm calling a "straight up fight" to be two 'Mechs dropped into an arena and told to locate and destroy each other.

The MAD-5D might be a wash against the MAD-IIC-B, but:

A.) In the greater context of a 12 vs. 12, the IS MAD-5D is more vulnerable because a single good flank puts it onto the permanent defensive where the MAD-IIC-B can keep going even missing a side torso. In addition, the IS MAD-5D has to wait for more of an opening before it can engage since it's almost pure brawl, while the IIC-B can actually contribute damage in more situations.

B.) The other MAD-IIC variants will absolutely wipe the floor with the other IS MAD alternatives, the damage rate disparity really is that huge. Everybody's pet 3xAC/5 MAD-3R? Yeah, that's 3x UAC/5 on the IIC and the PPFLD on the IS one will not make up for the sheer output, and the IIC will have the mobility advantage. The laser boats? Maximum any mobile IS MAD gets is five; the one that gets seven is stuck as a slug. There are no rate of fire quirks for any ballistic Marauders (and there really should be), no PPC quirks on any except the 3R (and there also should be, since like the Warhammer it is iconic with PPCs). The chassis is actually pretty mediocre compared to the specialists available to the IS in the WHM, GHR, BK, and even the CPLT-J.

PGI didn't even let it keep the quirks it launched with, and they should have.