15 replies to this topic

[Ebins]

tl;dr - My opinion that the nerf to clan mechs has gone way too far.

I don't get it. i really don't get all the hate towards clan mechs. Maybe if all mechs were "created equal," then I guess I could understand. I mean, maybe if liberalism and progressivism had reached space and participation trophies were handed out to both sides after a match, then I could "possibly" grasp the idea. But the truth is very different.

Clan mechs and armement have always been superior to Inner Sphere mechs. Hands down, there are no doubts. It has been that way ever since they were first encountered. Clan mechs are ton for ton faster, run cooler and have better targeting systems. Their weapons easily have greater range, do more damage, weigh less, and take up less space.

But according to PGI, this is no longer the case. Not only will they continue to make sure that you pay almost twice the amount in c-bills for a clan mech as compared to IS, but they will make sure that hey, everything else will pretty much be equal, so you're paying all that extra money for basically nothing.

This latest nerf by them is just pathetic. The Kodiak is basically a shadow of itself, and I'm not just talking about the KDK AC beast. I'm talking about all KDK variants. That horrible nerf to torso range of movement is not only anti-lore, but neuters the mech. Hell, if they wanted to be "lore," get rid of torso twist all together for mechs like the Nova, Kit Fox and Viper. But no, now even the Spirit Bear is basically dead when it wants to break into an enemy hardpoint like Mining Collective. Instead of being able to twist the torso a full 90 degrees and poking, you basically have to charge up the ramp to assault what ever forces are up there. And thanks to the large hit boxes on the thing, you get taken down pretty quickly. This isn't limited to one map only, but used as an example.

Of course, that isn't just limited to KDK's but also mechs like the Dire wolf. I'm sorry, but since when could these mechs NOT at least make a 90 degree rotation? Are they Avatars ramped up on steroids?

The UAC nerf is just wrong. It affects not only the KDK's, but all clan mechs that used them. Gone are the days when a single uac on a clan mech was a feasible build. The increase in jam chance along with the increase in jam cool down basically means that the primary weapon for said machine is neutered. Heck, even taking two uac5's is no longer feasible.

Finally, there are the "quirks." This is a horrible system intended to put a band-aid on a problem PGI created themselves. They tried to take MW2's mechlab and combine it with MW4's and ended up with a frankenstein. Clan frontline mechs were called omni's because one of their greatest strengths were their ability to configure for basically any battle. But now, if you take any clan variant, and switch out omni pods, any "benefit" the quirks gave them are immediately taken away, thus neutering the very idea of an omni mech system. The pilots of these machines are now forced to choose to either not change a single omnipod to take advantage of the quirks, or to forgo the quirks all together so they can do what they will.

The proponent of Inner Sphere mechs and "balance" seem to have forgotten one very important thing - their mechs and Clan mechs were NEVER balanced to begin with. They were never intended to be. The Clans were the new adversary for the infighting rulers of the Great Houses. That's why the new Star League was created. That's why nation states banded together to take on this new foe. Because divided they fell.

PGI should have instead looked at match making changes and "newer" IS technologies like C3 computers and new weapon systems to address this issue. There were many other ways to do it. But instead, they decided to nerf high end sports cars to just be "fair." Bullcrap.

PGI, if you're going to keep up with this crap, at least equalize out the costs between the two faction's mechs. Be fair to all.

PS - for those who say that the "timeline" isn't correct to put in place newer IS technologies, then why is the Bushwacker being released? That mech was going to be scrapped if it wasn't for captured clan tech (like the Mad Dog). It is not fair for you to have your cake and eat it too.

Edited by Ebins, 27 November 2016 - 05:44 AM.

[Ironwithin]

PGI said they are unable/don't want to go with asymmetrical teams (like 10vs12) so all the "BUT CLAMS S'POSED T'BE OP"-fluff goes out the window.

Also, this:

Quote

PGI, if you're going to keep up with this crap, at least equalize out the costs between the two faction's mechs. Be fair to all.

Getting an IS-mech "up to snuff" with endo, ferro, weapons, xl-engine, etc costs pretty much the same as it does for clan mechs, with the difference being that clanners come with much of that stuff locked or pre-installed. End-price is about the same.

[Kmieciu]

Ironwithin, on 27 November 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

End-price is about the same.

Engine prices are the same.
In case of mechs that require DHS, Endo and Ferro upgrades, the price is usually higher for IS.

Ebins, on 27 November 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

The proponent of Inner Sphere mechs and "balance" seem to have forgotten one very important thing - their mechs and Clan mechs were NEVER balanced to begin with. They were never intended to be.

They are supposed to be balanced in MWO.
Get over it.

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 November 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[Erik Krieger]

Ebins, on 27 November 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

Maybe if all mechs were "created equal," then I guess I could understand. I mean, maybe if liberalism and progressivism had reached space and participation trophies were handed out to both sides after a match, then I could "possibly" grasp the idea. But the truth is very different.

Dear Ebins,

I agree with everything you said to 100 percent! Thank you!

It's not only the technical direction mwo is now (de)constructed. Like i said in an older post, imo they are losing the feeling to bring this sci-fi scenario alive - in an adult, cool and realistic way...
Just like you said in the quote. I am glad that there are no "male" and "female" mechs.... the feminists and equalizers would go crazy if the assaults in this case would all be "male"... (by the way: many of the decals are just childish and dont fit in this scenario as well .. I am no longer fighting fearsome warmachines, but tom and jerry builds on their way to the kindergarten...)

I know that is an underdog opinion, but nevertheless thank you for this post!

[Mechwarrior8862442]

-

Edited by Wesley Jameson, 30 November 2016 - 03:35 PM.

[Willard Phule]

Kmieciu, on 29 November 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

Engine prices are the same.
In case of mechs that require DHS, Endo and Ferro upgrades, the price is usually higher for IS.



They are supposed to be balanced in MWO.
Get over it.

Give us the ability to swap engines and we'll be happy. Everything "clan" is twice the price for a "balanced" weapon or piece of equipment.

Allow us the same ability to modify our mechs in the interest of "balance."

[Karl Streiger]

I could totaly live with giving Clams what Clams deserve - their high end sports car. But please give us RnR back.

[Mawai]

Willard Phule, on 02 December 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Give us the ability to swap engines and we'll be happy. Everything "clan" is twice the price for a "balanced" weapon or piece of equipment. Allow us the same ability to modify our mechs in the interest of "balance."

What is the best light mech? Arctic Cheetah
What is the best medium mech? Stormcrow or Hunchback IIC
What is the best heavy mech? Timberwolf
What is the best assault mech? Kodiak

See a pattern? Clan mechs can swap omni pods to min/max hard point layout. IS mechs can't change the hard points but can change engine and opt to include endo/ferro/DHS. Clan mechs have free CASE in every component. Clan mechs don't die from side torso loss when XL equipped. Clan weapons are lighter and use fewer crit spaces. Clan ferro and endo also use much fewer crit slots.

Even moving down from just the best mechs, clans dominate much of the top tier ... as they are NOW ... without quirks ... without the ability to min/max on every other piece of equipment. Get it? Clans are on average anywhere from 10% to 50% more effective than IS counterparts (e.g. Kodiak vs Victor ... Kodiak is on the order of 50% more effective based on tournament results ... though that was prior to the Kodiak torso twist reductions). Of course there are clan mechs that don't peform and there are a few IS mechs that do ... but on average the clans do better than IS. Care to argue that point anyone? Anyone willing to say that overall the clans are WORSE than IS?

As for making clans OP as they are in lore ...

You can't do 10 v 12 matches UNLESS you split clan from IS mechs in the matchmaker. You can't just do clan v IS matches without getting wait times in HOURS unless the number of folks in each queue are exactly equal (which doesn't happen). You could arrange to have IS v IS, clan v clan and IS v clan to alleviate the queue issues. However, HOW do you balance a match? 10 v 12 is simple to say until you start to try to divide it up by weight classes. Do you mean 3L/3M/3H/1A for clans vs 3L/3M/3H/3A for IS? What do you do when you DON'T have the required mechs in the queue? You need to have release valves so that composition can be varied to match what is queued but still produce balanced matches. Would 3 Kodiaks vs any 3 IS assaults be even? 10 v 12 or ANY form of matchmaking in which clan is not approximately equal to IS results in a brutal coding problem in terms of matchmaker design. It is MUCH easier to keep even numbers and weight class distribution while creating mechs that are more or less balanced clan v IS.

How many folks would play IS mechs when they are individually weaker than clans? Most people like to drive the most powerful mech in a game ... look at the popularity of Timberwolves and Kodiaks. Make them more OP ... balance matches using more IS mechs ... how many folks besides the diehard IS fans will actually WANT to play weaker IS mechs knowing that running into a clan mech without your team mates is a death sentence? OP clan mechs would be bad for player distribution and, in the end, bad for the player population. Overall, the different but balanced philosophy that PGI is trying to use (but not quite succeeding at since on average clans are still a bit better), seems to be the better way to address this in an online game like MWO.


Finally, as mentioned by others, the cbill costs of IS mechs once fully fitted with endo/ferro/DHS etc are more or less comparable to clan mechs - the clans cost more because they have more equipment. In addition, the costs for clan mechs in MWO are much LOWER than the values cited in table top ... basically, clan mechs are bargain in MWO ... because they are comparably priced relative to IS mechs with similar equipment.

Edited by Mawai, 02 December 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[Willard Phule]

Mawai, on 02 December 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

What is the best light mech? Arctic Cheetah
What is the best medium mech? Stormcrow or Hunchback IIC
What is the best heavy mech? Timberwolf
What is the best assault mech? Kodiak

See a pattern? Clan mechs can swap omni pods to min/max hard point layout. IS mechs can't change the hard points but can change engine and opt to include endo/ferro/DHS. Clan mechs have free CASE in every component. Clan mechs don't die from side torso loss when XL equipped. Clan weapons are lighter and use fewer crit spaces. Clan ferro and endo also use much fewer crit slots.

Even moving down from just the best mechs, clans dominate much of the top tier ... as they are NOW ... without quirks ... without the ability to min/max on every other piece of equipment. Get it? Clans are on average anywhere from 10% to 50% more effective than IS counterparts (e.g. Kodiak vs Victor ... Kodiak is on the order of 50% more effective based on tournament results ... though that was prior to the Kodiak torso twist reductions). Of course there are clan mechs that don't peform and there are a few IS mechs that do ... but on average the clans do better than IS. Care to argue that point anyone? Anyone willing to say that overall the clans are WORSE than IS?

As for making clans OP as they are in lore ...

You can't do 10 v 12 matches UNLESS you split clan from IS mechs in the matchmaker. You can't just do clan v IS matches without getting wait times in HOURS unless the number of folks in each queue are exactly equal (which doesn't happen). You could arrange to have IS v IS, clan v clan and IS v clan to alleviate the queue issues. However, HOW do you balance a match? 10 v 12 is simple to say until you start to try to divide it up by weight classes. Do you mean 3L/3M/3H/1A for clans vs 3L/3M/3H/3A for IS? What do you do when you DON'T have the required mechs in the queue? You need to have release valves so that composition can be varied to match what is queued but still produce balanced matches. Would 3 Kodiaks vs any 3 IS assaults be even? 10 v 12 or ANY form of matchmaking in which clan is not approximately equal to IS results in a brutal coding problem in terms of matchmaker design. It is MUCH easier to keep even numbers and weight class distribution while creating mechs that are more or less balanced clan v IS.

How many folks would play IS mechs when they are individually weaker than clans? Most people like to drive the most powerful mech in a game ... look at the popularity of Timberwolves and Kodiaks. Make them more OP ... balance matches using more IS mechs ... how many folks besides the diehard IS fans will actually WANT to play weaker IS mechs knowing that running into a clan mech without your team mates is a death sentence? OP clan mechs would be bad for player distribution and, in the end, bad for the player population. Overall, the different but balanced philosophy that PGI is trying to use (but not quite succeeding at since on average clans are still a bit better), seems to be the better way to address this in an online game like MWO.


Finally, as mentioned by others, the cbill costs of IS mechs once fully fitted with endo/ferro/DHS etc are more or less comparable to clan mechs - the clans cost more because they have more equipment. In addition, the costs for clan mechs in MWO are much LOWER than the values cited in table top ... basically, clan mechs are bargain in MWO ... because they are comparably priced relative to IS mechs with similar equipment.

First of all, PGI obviously has no concept of why the "omnimech" is superior to the "battlemech." And, frankly, it's hard to implement in a game with no Refit and Recovery.

Swapping and repairing Battlemechs is suppposed to take time and money. Omnimechs are supposed to be entirely modular and can be repaired quickly, even in the field. This whole hardpoint/omnipod nonsense is absurd and completely misses the entire point of modularity.

The ability to swap an engine out without worrying about the time and cost necessary to accomplish the task is a complete given for IS Battlemechs. If the written rules say it would take 4 months, it happens with the click of a mouse. So, explain to me how you couldn't swap engines on an Omni in the same amount of time? A mouse click is a mouse click.

And I don't want to hear the whole "by the time we upgrade stuff, it costs the same" argument. You don't have to take those upgrades. Some people actually run effective SHS builds. Lots of people use Standard engines.

In fact, the entire concept of modularity means you can put jump jets, AMS (in fact, Clans are supposed to have laser AMS, but PGI can't code that) and ECM on just about anything, as long as you have the tonnage and space.

Don't get me started on the whole "everything has to be equal" nonsense with the weapons balancing. Clan weapons were supposed to be lighter, hotter and hit from further away. CERPPC splashing 33% of it's overall damage....a 33% nerf because "balance."

[VitriolicViolet]

'balance' is needed in a online shooter, i would have prefered them to leave Clan as OP and do the Star/Lance thing but they apparently cant. since they cant if you want to look at balance use comparable mechs.

I've suggested this several times if your trying to compare tech bases id use the IIC mechs and counterparts, The Orions and Highlanders in particualr have variants (HGN-732B/HGN-IIC-C) that have the same hardpoints (energy and missiles are switched positions) Same hitboxes, same engine cap, JJ etc. They even have similar structure/armor quirks.
The only real difference is Clan tech and IS weapon/movement quirks.

[Vlad Striker]

Quote

What is the best light mech? Arctic Cheetah
What is the best medium mech? Stormcrow or Hunchback IIC
What is the best heavy mech? Timberwolf
What is the best assault mech? Kodiak

Now long ago did you play?

[Fake News]

i just came back after 4 weeks away. the kodiak is a **** mech. uacs are garbage. laser vomit the only viable meta for clan.

thanks pgi. your nerfs are measured as always.

[Appogee]

@OP: your opinion is flat out wrong.

I have almost all Clan Mechs and IS Mechs. Clan retains tech superiority. And it has the best in class Mechs in every weight class.

If you can't win with Clan tech, you need to look at how you're piloting and playing. Because it's not your Mechs' faults.

[MookieDog]

Ebins, on 27 November 2016 - 05:36 AM, said:

tl;dr - My opinion that the nerf to clan mechs has gone way too far.

Let me hand you a hankey so you can continue crying.

Ebins, considering that FW/CW isnt 12 IS mechs v 10 Clan mechs your point is mute. Clans fight at the same tonnage that IS mechs do, which as you point out are: faster, better armored, carry vastly more fire power, and are must more agile and durable. So why would anyone EVER play am IS mech!?!?!?!?!?

Take a look at the faction warfare map...look kinda green? Hmmm no Liao. Battle for Tukkyid... not IS that was able to hold off the Clans.. they are 0 and 2, why you might ask? Why play an IS mech when you can play the best of the best and punch the easy button.

I would also bet you are not the type of player that runs stock clan mechs. You probably maxxed out the armor and either metaed the mech or slapped on UAC and small pulse laser SPAM. I would agree with Appogee that your mech is probably making up for your lack of playing skills. Spamming the fire button behind four UAC's on a Kodiak-3 scoring 500-1000 damage does not make you a T1 elite player. Neither does sniping with 3 C-ERLL with an ECM at 7-800 meters. Finally running around with an ECM and six small C-ERSL's does not yeld the same result.

Want to know what does make you a good pilot? Try running a stock; Wolverines, Marauders, Warhammers, and Griffins in pug matchs and then faction play. You will see how lop sided clan mechs truly are. Even with IS mechs being meta mechs, they are at a SEVERE disadvantage.

To further hold your nose to the poop you spewed.. the top mechs in each tier as mentioned before are what again..

Assault:Kodiak
Heavy: Night Gyr
Medium: Hunchback IIC for brawling Streak Crow's for Scouting
Light: the unparalleled and lopsided Arctic Cheetah (Cheater)

And then for new releases out comes: the Marauder IIC. Uncle Russ has basically given you the IS on a silver platter. The IS got what?? The Assassin, 40 tons of.. er.. ya. the Weedwacker, 55 tons of well ya.. the Leatherneck, 65 tons of.. er kinda maybe well not really.

Opposed to the clans getting the: Linebacker which is a 65 ton steel brick and eats damage like cookie monster at a girl scout stand. The Huntsman, and additional 50 ton mech which is one step short of lethality to the Hunchie IIC, (omni v IS patterns), The Marauder IIC which is going to be a flat out beast. That mech will eat a Battlemaster 2C for breakfast and then ask for seconds before moving onto the Atlas. Add to that, it also has an ECM on one variant and JJ's on another. Fanboys will be lined up at Walmart for extra socks and Vaseline before playing MWO with their new Marauder IIC's.

So basically man up, shut your pie hole, adjust to the coming changes in a free to play game. Its really not that bad.

Edited by MookieDog, 10 December 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Ironwithin]

MookieDog, on 10 December 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

...
So basically man up, shut your pie hole, adjust to the coming changes in a free to play game. Its really not that bad.

Yeah ... telling people to shut up on a feedback forum is kinda counterproductive.
Telling stupid people their stupid opinions are stupidly wrong is fine, everybody thinks everyone else's opinions are stupid, that's a discussion in our modern age but people are free to voice their stupid opinions, whether you like them or not.

Edited by Ironwithin, 10 December 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[FREDtheDEAD]

Symmetrical teams and no refit and recovery phase (so every match is as if the previous one hadn't happened) severely limits the immersion and balancing mechanisms MWO has available to it. We just have to work within those limitations.