140 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Viktor Drake, on 14 December 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

You know I am not arguing output, I am arguing reliability because it doesn't matter if they do 1 DPS or 1000 DPS when they are jammed up and not firing becasue at that point they are ZERO DPS. I personally would prefer a reduction to the overall potential DPS than the gun jamming one time every 5 times I fire it and not being able to use that gun for something like 10-15 seconds (when you count the cooldown you have to go through after the jam completes). Maybe add a delay on the second burst or something or basically anything but such an important weapon being rendered unusable for such extended periods of time and with such frequency.

No, you don't get it; you could have avoided the jam entirely by simply holding the button down. Boom, reliable 8+ DPS from the two UAC/10s all day until you run dry. No, what you are specifically after is being able to reliably click-spam the double-tap so you can bulldoze through the target on a commit. That is not what the Ultra functionality is for. You need to use your brain and be the judge of when it is appropriate to surge your output, knowing the potential drawback to that decision.

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Also you say you shouldn't be leading the commit if your only mounting 1 or 2 UACs well that is fine but what can I mount in their place? Gauss which aren't brawling weapons and weight more or the LB-10X which in its own way is just about as unreliable as the UAC/10 and is only really useful out to about 300m max. Clans get shafted big time by not having a solid slug option for their Ballistic choice.

No, they don't get shafted at all. On a push, it only matters that you are getting significant damage onto the target. Assuming you aren't being daft and pushing alone, the focus fire takes care of the rest. You do not need PPFLD to accomplish this.

Gauss are pretty competent in a brawl. They have an effective DPS that is very hard to overcome if you have good shot placement.

Really, everything you list is a personal failing, not an equipment one.

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But we are drifting off topic so I will bring it back on topic.

If your piloting a MAD-IIC, do yourself a favor and make sure your have a significant amount of non-UAC firepower available if your going to run UACs and I will leave it at that.

Nah, I'll be fine, unless a quartet of cERML counts as significant non-UAC firepower.

[visionGT4]

Viktor Drake, on 14 December 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

So you compared a 75 ton mech to a 85 ton mech and found that the 85 ton mech came out superior....hmmm.....imagine that.

No, I placed the same equipment on the IIc that equips the 3r. The same equipment (and more armour) weighs 60 tons on the clan mech compared to 75ton's on the IS 3R. The clan tech not only has a 15ton advantage in terms of equipment weight, the weapons also offer superior performance. In simpler terms, clan tech is significantly better than IS - which is a cold hard fact not open to interpretation or dismissed with typical clan untermensch entitlement claims.

Gas Guzzler, on 14 December 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

Compare to BLR-1G with XL 395, 3 LPLs, 4 MLs

Firepower, mobility, heat efficiency... yes you are in an IS XL but you can spread damage very well in that thing. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the MAD-IIC because its something new, and brings some new loadouts to the table for Clans, but "full ******" is an exaggeration. If you take the right IS mechs they still have some pretty good options. Balance does favor Clans, but its really not THAT bad right now.

Also, you should swap out the 4 lasers for 2 PPCs on the right arm on your 3R build, it will be better.

I disagree with IS having plenty of good options. The best weapon platforms in the game are clan mechs (protection + mobility) the best weapons in the game are clan tech (best = performance:ton). There's no 'logical' reason to take inferior IS tech. Plenty of emotional reasons tho e.g. IS mechs are 1000x cooler than anything the Space Schutzstaffel operate!

re swapping lasers my muscle memory cant deal with PPC's with 50% extra velocity

Edited by visionGT4, 14 December 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

visionGT4, on 14 December 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

No, I placed the same equipment on the IIc that equips the 3r. The same equipment (and more armour) weighs 60 tons on the clan mech compared to 75ton's on the IS 3R. The clan tech not only has a 15ton advantage in terms of equipment weight, the weapons also offer superior performance. In simpler terms, clan tech is significantly better than IS - which is a cold hard fact not open to interpretation or dismissed with typical clan untermensch entitlement claims.



I disagree with IS having plenty of good options. The best weapon platforms in the game are clan mechs (protection + mobility) the best weapons in the game are clan tech (best = performance:ton). There's no 'logical' reason to take inferior IS mech's. Plenty of emotional reasons tho e.g. IS mechs are 1000x cooler than anything the Space Schutzstaffel operate!

re swapping lasers my muscle memory cant deal with PPC's with 50% extra velocity

Oh here we go again extorting just how much better Clan weapons are than IS weapons. Wish you all would stop already.

You are saying that the Marauder IIC has a 15 ton weapons advantage huh? Does it really?

A Clan ER ML produces 6 heat. That is 50% more heat than a IS ML. Put 4 IS ML on a mech and they produce 16 heat. Put 4 ER ML on a Clan mech and it is producing 24 heat. Just how much weight are you going to allow for the extra DHS required to dissipate the equivalent of 2 extra IS MLs worth of heat. At rough guess I would say probably 3 additional DHS to accommodate that additional 8 heat. BAM...you 15 tons magically got reduced to 12 tons.

Then lets look at crit slots. Those Clan ER ML take up 1 slot and IS ML take up one slot...but we just established that it is going to require 3 more DHS to deal with the additional heat generated by the Clan Weapons so those 4 big bad OP Clan ER ML are only costing us 10 critical slots verse the 4 IS ML only costing 4 slots...why that is enough critical space to add 2 fricken IS DHS to the IS mech.

Of course lets not talk about beam duration. I mean IS MLs only 0.9 seconds vs Clan ER ML suffering a duration of 1.15 seconds. OH SNAP, those IS MLs can fire their full duration beam and start their cooldown cycle an entire 0.25 second faster than the big bad OP Clan ER MLs which means even though they only do 5 damage per hit, they are hitting 30% faster than the big bad, OP Clan ER MLs. This of course doesn't even consider the fact that it is easier to concentrate full damage on say the CT with a 0.9 beam duration than a 1.15 beam duration, I mean that sort of thing doesn't matter at all.

Seriously, I will apologize for the sarcastic tone in advance here, but please don't go quoting overall Clan weapon or Tech superiority because in most cases it isn't there or is alot less pronounced that people make it out to be and I am not even getting into things like LRMs that stream into the target verse LRMs that slam into the target as a group, the advantage of a solid slug for PPFLD over a stream of shells etc. Some Clan weapons are superior, this I will agree with but most are not and in some cases, IS weapons actually hold top rank.

Also one final note because there is a ton of friken hardcore Clan or IS bias on this form. My stable is about 50% IS, 50% Clan. I play both equally and with the additional quirks most IS mechs have, I generally don't feel disadvantaged when playing my IS mechs.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 14 December 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[visionGT4]

Viktor Drake, on 14 December 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

denial is not just a river in egypt

As has been pointed out many times comparing IS ML to CERML is disingenuous

The CERML is equivalent to the next class up of IS weaponry the LL
LL 5t | 2crits | 450m OR | 7 heat | 1 second duration | CD 3.25s
CERML 1t | 1 crit | 405m OR | 6 heat | 1.15 second duration | CD 3.0s

Again the numbers do not lie - ton for ton crit for crit Clan Tech *is* superior. Denying this black and white fact just highlights how irrational the clan appologists are.

edit: for wtf typo's

Edited by visionGT4, 14 December 2016 - 05:39 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

visionGT4, on 14 December 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

As has been pointed out many times comparing IS ML to CERML is disingenuous

The CERML is equivalent to the next class up of IS weaponry the LL
LL 5t | 2crits | 450m OR | 7 heat | 1 second duration | CD 3.25s
CERML 1t | 1 crit | 405m OR | 6 heat | 1.15 second duration | CD 3.0s

Again the numbers do not lie - ton for ton crit for crit Clan Tech *is* superior. Denying this black and white fact just highlights how irrational the clan appologists are.

edit: for wtf typo's

This post contains no justification for why the IS Large Laser is the 'correct' comparitor weapon for the Clan ER Medium Laser. It's a pretty central plank to your argument to be assuming people will just accept on your say-so.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 14 December 2016 - 05:53 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lupis Volk, on 14 December 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Well Smurfy has the marauder 2c now. Anyone got builds?

These are my current builds excluding the B because it makes me very sad.
MAD-IIC
MAD-IIC-8
MAD-IIC-A
MAD-IIC-C
MAD-IIC-D
SCORCH

[Y E O N N E]

What if I told you all that a cERML does more damage in 0.9 seconds than an IS MedLas?

Time to find a new god!

[Chados]

RestosIII, on 13 December 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

I really.shouldn't mention it, but I constantly skip leg day and don't wear a helmet, just to get by with lore builds. Not many people notice and take advantage of it. People would definitely notice if I was missing CT armor. Honestly though, one thing I do think about outside lore builds is the Scorch. I look at it, and just think: "I could make this into a poor man's Mad Cat MK 2." And that makes me drool at the thought. I need to stop thinking like that before I spend money I don't have on the MAD-IIC package.

I run the base IIC superstock, added more DHS, an XL380, an AMS, a TC1, and more armor. I like it a lot. I can't hit the broad side of a barn outside 400 meters with PPCs but I'm learning. I'm on to Scorch now and basicing it with 2xuAC10, 2xML, 4xSSRM4, TC1, 3 extra DHS, XL340 stuffed with DHS, and all the ammo I can carry with near max armor. It's the überRifleman. I like it too. The MAD IIC series so far is the only mech I ever ran in MWO that I liked just fine without any quirks. It *feels* like a Marauder-like the Marauder 3D from MPBT back in the day. It's decently tough, fairly mobile, hotter than a two dollar pistol but manageable, and has respectable firepower. Worth the buy-in.

[visionGT4]

Gaan Cathal, on 14 December 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

This post contains no justification for why the IS Large Laser is the 'correct' comparitor weapon for the Clan ER Medium Laser. It's a pretty central plank to your argument to be assuming people will just accept on your say-so.

With the stats lined up side by side it pretty obvious. Well maybe its just obvious to rational, objective minded people without an apologist agenda.

Tis my bad really, i forget that when your mother & farther were also your brother & sister that thought process beyond circle jerks of equals and clubbing baby seals doesn't come naturally. <<-- role play mode statement

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 December 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

These are my current builds excluding the B because it makes me very sad.
MAD-IIC

I put 2 LRM20s with artemis on the B, with LPL+quad ER ML backup. Yeah I don't like it but what else are you gonna do with it?

I see you also share my desire for a nice symmetrical laser vomit lolpha. I put a full on extra ERML up top instead of a flamer but don't use it in my main poke group. I've found its nice to have for if you lose an arm or something.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 December 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

I see you also share my desire for a nice symmetrical laser vomit lolpha. I put a full on extra ERML up top instead of a flamer but don't use it in my main poke group. I've found its nice to have for if you lose an arm or something.

My OCD kicked in and said no.

[HGAK47]

Well put it this way, I got my first headshot kill yesterday against one of those marauders . Aim for the head.

[Quinn Allard]

They run hot sure, but its manageable. Had several 1000+ dmg matches in most of the variants including Scorch. Dual AC20 with 4 SRM6 is fun, or 2 LRG PLS 2 AC5 4 SRM6. Several lazer boat configs. Several PPC configs. Can take a XL400 so your moving along at 76+kph. Also if you put at least 500 points of armor they're quite tanky.

[Lupis Volk]

Corrado, on 14 December 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

my actual scorch

SCORCH 2Gauss2ERPPC 325

my actual IIC

MAD-IIC(S) 1CLPL+6CERML 375 32DHS (to try the new DHS heatcap, works wonders)

scorch shotgun variant

SCORCH shotgun

the A

MAD-IIC-A Midrange Suppress

ECM sniper

MAD-IIC-D 2Gauss ERPPC TC5 340

Many thanks.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 December 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

These are my current builds excluding the B because it makes me very sad.
MAD-IIC
MAD-IIC-8
MAD-IIC-A
MAD-IIC-C
MAD-IIC-D
SCORCH

I've built your 2C and 2C-A and i'm wondering what your weapon groups are set up as? Just did my first match in the 2C-A got 880 on Escort in Frozen City. I'm rather impressed.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 14 December 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

visionGT4, on 14 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

With the stats lined up side by side it pretty obvious. Well maybe its just obvious to rational, objective minded people without an apologist agenda.

You didn't line the stats up though, you only compared C-ERML and IS-LL. That doesn't prove anything about the fitness of the IS-ML as a comparitor for the C-ERML without IS-ML being included.

As for apologist, way back when the Clans were first announced I (as a Clanner from prior games) was advocating for damage normalisation with like weapons. A balancing criteria I stand by (if pointlessly, since that'd be an overhaul-level change which...let's face it, is unlikely). That said, I was also arguing against mixed teams.

[Ace Selin]

My IIC build


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9223931031a848c

[Angel of Annihilation]

visionGT4, on 14 December 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

As has been pointed out many times comparing IS ML to CERML is disingenuous

The CERML is equivalent to the next class up of IS weaponry the LL
LL 5t | 2crits | 450m OR | 7 heat | 1 second duration | CD 3.25s
CERML 1t | 1 crit | 405m OR | 6 heat | 1.15 second duration | CD 3.0s

Again the numbers do not lie - ton for ton crit for crit Clan Tech *is* superior. Denying this black and white fact just highlights how irrational the clan appologists are.

edit: for wtf typo's

But wait, I just used the number to compare it to the IS ML and proved it had very similar damage output for the tonnage, especially when your using multiple medium lasers on your mech. Your right numbers don't lie.

Also that IS LL does 30% more damage than the Clan ER ML and still has a shorter beam duration so it concentrates damage better. Hmm guess it isn't actually comparable.

Also you have to take all weapons as a package. While there are some builds that use only one type of weapon, most are mixing in LL, ML maybe some SRMs or a PPC or two and overall when you tally up all factors such as heat efficiency, weight, damage, beam duration, rate of fire, etc, most IS mech builds will have a similar DPS value. AND THIS IS BEFORE WE TAKE QUIRKS INTO ACCOUNT. Yes Quirks. In many cases those lovely IS quirks actually make IS weapon clearly superior in all ways to Clan weapons. One of my Crabs mounts ER LLs that are cooler, fires faster, has a shorter beam duration and longer range then Clan ER LLs.

In general Clan mechs have a range and alpha advantage at the expense of being much hotter and requiring significantly more DHS to keep their heat under control, additionally their damage tends to be less concentrated due to very few of their weapons having short concentrated beams or other PPD characteristics. IS mechs generally have shorter range but can re-fire their weapons much faster and run much cooler thus reducing the requirement of DHS mounted. Additionally with shorter beam durations and with most weapons having PPD characteristics the damage they output is much more concentrated and effective. These weapons characteristics also factor heavily into how much damage these mechs take. Most Clan weapons require Clan mechs to maintain much more face time with the enemy thus exposing them to a greater volume of return fire. IS mechs on the other time can take advantage of their weapons PPD characteristics to rapidly fire and return to cover thus reducing the amount of damage they take.

They are different with a different feel and both IS and Clan mechs hold situational advantages on the battlefield but one being superior to the other all the time, every time, they are not. This is why I get so steamed when I see people claiming Clan weapons are superior in all cases.

Lastly, did you not read where I play Clan and IS mechs almost equally? Hell I think I have more real money invested in IS mechs than I do Clan Mechs if you want to get right down to it. However despite this fact I am a Clan Apologist?

Sorry but it would be real stupid of me to want half of the mechs I own to be clearly inferior and not worth playing because they aren't balanced.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Lupis Volk, on 14 December 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

I've built your 2C and 2C-A and i'm wondering what your weapon groups are set up as?

For the IIC, I have alpha as one group, LPLs as second group, all mediums as third, and then arm mounted mediums as fourth.
For the IIC-A, I have alpha as one group, UACs as second group, ERPPCs as third, and then ERPPCs on chain fire as fourth.

[Corrado]

Tombs Clawtooth, on 14 December 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

Until the KDK-3 I never saw that many people running UACs. I saw mostly what I still see everywhere today. Primarily 2 LPL with 4 medium lasers, or a gauss and 2 PPCs.

i did run a 4UAC10 dire since the dire exists, way before the ammo buff, and been always effective with a good amount of 1000+ damage games. but guess what? pgi noticed it when a lot of people ran the kdk3 with that setup and completely destroyed it with ghost heat.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Corrado, on 15 December 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

pgi noticed it when a lot of people ran the kdk3 with that setup and completely destroyed it with ghost heat.

PGI noticed it because there is a difference between the Whale and the KDK-3 doing it, one has great hardpoint positions and mobility, the other not so much.