385 replies to this topic

[Van Hoven]

The reason why I dislike a broad damage multiplier is that it can be very dangerous. Let's take a look at well.... the Marouder 2c-sc for example. 2 gauss 2 erpccs, for 50 pinpoint damage, 60 in total. 25% on top of that would mean that gauss deal around 19 pts of damage, erppcs 12.5 PP damage, so 62.5 pp damage or 75 in total. To let TTK stay as it is you'd need to up the structure by a larger degree then the damage increase. For example a 100 ton mech has 62 internal hp. Without 25% dmg bonus it'd die in 2 shots. with 25% increased dmg it would need a buff for at least 101% to survive 2 hits, whereas a 60% increase would suffice with the old dmg numbers.

On top of that, you allready get a damage bonus by equipping an xl engine for having more weight freed up for weapons.

Balancing Battlemechs vs Omnis isn't a bad idea at all, and it's not like I wouldnt be fine with that idea either, but I think the smaller the change, the better it is.

The baseline however would be: Give mechs with standart engines a structure buff, a significant one somewhere between 30 and 50%. If it's bound to engine rating or the weightclass doesnt really matter, since the bigger you are the bigger your engine gets. I'd favour to go with base tonnage and therefor base internal values just to simplify it a tidbit more, but in the end it hardly really matters. For a 100 ton mech with a 400 engine andi's idea would translate into 102 internal hp instead of 62, with a 50% buff its 93.

[Johnny Z]

Remove speed tweak from all XL engines. See how that goes and go from there.

This brings Clantech closer to Inner Sphere tech. Makes the Inner Sphere XL even more of a glass cannon instead of being a Glass Cannon and faster. This also buffs the standard engine.

This change should be some what easy to do and reverse if need be.

Yes I have been spamming this but the idea seems really good.

The Battletech Universe was founded on the standard engine. TTK and everything else was based on the standard engine. Power creep got out of hand, maybe time to do some "normalization"?

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[AEgg]

Johnny Z, on 17 December 2016 - 09:37 AM, said:

Remove speed tweak from all XL engines. See how that goes and go from there.

This brings Clantech closer to Inner Sphere tech. Makes the Inner Sphere XL even more of a glass cannon instead of being a Glass Cannon and faster. This also buffs the standard engine.

This change should be some what easy to do and reverse if need be.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. We need to buff the IS XL engine, not nerf it, it's already strictly worse than clan/omni XL.

Van Hoven, on 17 December 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

-snip-

I agree there are problems with a flat damage bonus, but if we want XL and STD to actually have meaningful differences, I don't see any other alternatives. Less weight would accomplish the same thing, but it sort-of breaks stock builds. A damage bonus is at least noticeable on all mechs. And in the real world, you'll hardly notice anything much lower than 10%. Without structure quirks, an XL engine is fragile. If you want to trade your defense for more offense, why not let you? If STD engines provide a strong enough structure bonus in comparison, then we have two valid choices (three if you count running an Omni).

[Johnny Z]

Its about balance. Buffing the Inner Sphere XL makes the Inner Sphere standard engine useless. If its about tech balance then, then a move to bring the techs closer is the right one, meanwhile leaving all the details in place.

This cant be about only XL's, the standard has to be included.

My favourite mech the Phoenix Hawk R uses an XL. But that is irrelevant. Bringing standards and XL's closer, brings the gameplay closer to the lore load outs, fiction, sim, etc.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 10:00 AM.

[AEgg]

Johnny Z, on 17 December 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

Its about balance. Buffing the Inner Sphere XL makes the Inner Sphere standard engine useless. If its about tech balance then, then a move to bring the techs closer is the right one, meanwhile leaving all the details in place.

This cant be about only XL's, the standard has to be included.

My favourite mech the Phoenix Hawk R uses an XL. But that is irrelevant.

It doesn't become useless if running an XL on a battlemech means you get zero structure quirks and die from ST destruction. That's already a big enough downside that most assaults and heavies simply cannot run XL.

The whole point is making STD, XL, and Omni XL all viable choices. You can't do that if Omni XL is strictly better than Battlemech XL.

[Johnny Z]

AEgg, on 17 December 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

It doesn't become useless if running an XL on a battlemech means you get zero structure quirks and die from ST destruction. That's already a big enough downside that most assaults and heavies simply cannot run XL.

The whole point is making STD, XL, and Omni XL all viable choices. You can't do that if Omni XL is strictly better than Battlemech XL.

Your ignoring quirks. They have nearly balanced the game as is. Yes some issues with the Clan XL and balance in general remain.

Some think the game is perfectly balanced as is and they are close to being right. Make Inner Sphere standards a stronger option and the fights will be a lot closer. Inner Sphere already wins a good portion of the close matches.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 10:06 AM.

[Sjorpha]

It's really important to balance the XL engines, and all other equipment too for that matter, but the XL engines are the first priority.

I would prefer if the advantages of IS and Clan XL are different things, distinct factions is more fun. Just as long as they add up to equal strengths.

So one idea is to give the IS XL more speed, how about that? Faster than clan XL but more fragile. Maybe with some extra agility too. I like this because it keeps the difference in flavor.

In addition to that, standard engines need to do something that makes them a viable choice over XL engines, for BOTH factions, I think since their niche is tankiness let's give that a significant boost. Make standard engines give a significant structure buffs to the whole mech, along with a hefty bonus to torso twist speed. Now you have standard engines that really makes mechs real tanky and good at spreading damage. This would keep standard engine the correct choice for mechs like the Atlas and maybe some clan mechs like the spirit bear too.

To further make standard and lower engine ratings viable, introduce a turning penalty at high speeds. Just like in the real world, you cannot turn as fast and sharp if you are running or driving very fast due to the gforce involved. Make that true for mechs also so that making very sharp turns require the pilots in fast mechs to slow down a little, just like in a racing game. Perhaps you start losing turn speed from 50kph and upwards, and the heavier the mech the harder it it to turn fast at high speeds. Some mechs could have bonuses to mitigate this, or it could be a choice in the skill tree for some mechs. This would also introduce some more skill and simulation feel to piloting, and more reasons to actually not use max speed all the time.

Edited by Sjorpha, 17 December 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Sjorpha, on 17 December 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's really important to balance the XL engines, and all other equipment too for that matter, but the XL engines are the first priority.

I would prefer if the advantages of IS and Clan XL are different things, distinct factions is more fun. Just as long as they add up to equal strengths.

So one idea is to give the IS XL more speed, how about that? Faster than clan XL but more fragile. Maybe with some extra agility too. I like this because it keeps the difference in flavor.

In addition to that, standard engines need to do something that makes them a viable choice over XL engines, for BOTH factions, I think since their niche is tankiness let's give that a significant boost. Make standard engines give a significant structure buffs to the whole mech, along with a hefty bonus to torso twist speed. Now you have standard engines that really makes mechs real tanky and good at spreading damage. This would keep standard engine the correct choice for mechs like the Atlas and maybe some clan mechs like the spirit bear too.

To further make standard and lower engine ratings viable, introduce a turning penalty at high speeds. Just like in the real world, you cannot turn as fast and sharp if you are running or driving very fast due to the gforce involved. Make that true for mechs also so that making very sharp turns require the pilots in fast mechs to slow down a little, just like in a racing game. Perhaps you start losing turn speed from 50kph and upwards, and the heavier the mech the harder it it to turn fast at high speeds. Some mechs could have bonuses to mitigate this, or it could be a choice in the skill tree for some mechs.

Balance is close at the moment. This is being ignored.

Adding some durability to the Inner Sphere engines shouldnt be to hard to bridge the gap. If the standard engines become more useful.

The only potential problem or maybe improvement I am not sure of with removing speed tweak from Xl engines is the slowdown in gameplay for some mechs. Like for gameplay fun kind of thing. Or maybe it will improve the sim and make it more fun.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 10:15 AM.

[Lykaon]

Why over complicate this?

Set Inner Sphere XL engines to survive a single side torso loss with identical penalties to clan XL damage.

Inner Sphere standard engines are still more viable than clan standard engines because I.S. mechs must choose between things like AC20 or XL twin UAC5s or XL where do I fit my three crit slot dubs? will I have enough slots left over with XL + Endo steel to fit my weapons?

The I.S. XL engine at least hase it's nitche

The Clan XL is still superior to the I.S. XL engine because of it's size and pairing with other low crit cost weight saving techs like 7 slot endo and 2 crit dubs also saves on the space.

This isn't all that complicated. Start with this and see if standard engines actually need anything.

[FireStoat]

Let the IS XL survive a side torso loss and I'll start playing IS mechs again. This isn't about power gaming - it's about using the same damned equipment and mech builds I was able to use from the table top game without feeling like I made a horrible mistake.

Give standard engine users a small buff to structure as previously suggested to make the people who want to use them feel a bit better about their choice when fitting in large weapons in the torsos, to validate standard engine existence more. Call it done.

[Andi Nagasia]

Van Hoven, on 17 December 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Unlock endo/ferro for omnis would be an easy change, much better then giving quirks IMHO. Since the mainly used mechs still have endo and ferro it would only bring diversity to the field.

But also, give mechs at the lower end of their weightclass base line quirks for IS and Clan equally. I really does not like quirks on an individual level, it makes the game confusing and harder to get into.

Still, some mechs with bad geometry and weapon hardpoints should get SOME quirks to make up for that disadvantage.

And again I'm all for equalizing IS and Clan xl Engines. It has it flaws as others pointed out, sure. But it's an easy to implement, easy for everyone to understand fix. And tbh, this game does need more easy solutions you aren't required to look up at the forums to understand.

Unlocking Endo/Ferro for OmniMechs is more a BattleMech/OmniMech DIscussion,
as it is right now of a mech like the Woodsman was unlocked with a 300STD it would suck as an OmniMech,
same Tonnage & Speed as the Night Gyr, but 10Tons less Avalable, but at least it has MASC?

[Andi Nagasia]

their is a problem with just adding Structure when you have an IS XL equipped,

so at New Player Level, Clan are easier to Run though more expensive(to Start)
but at Pro Play, the gap is at 1% or less, considering Perfect Twisting(no Structure Quirks),
with Structure Quirks both sides are now Equal but at Pro Play Clan falls behind,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 17 December 2016 - 11:01 AM.

[Van Hoven]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Unlocking Endo/Ferro for OmniMechs is more a BattleMech/OmniMech DIscussion,
as it is right now of a mech like the Woodsman was unlocked with a 300STD it would suck as an OmniMech,
same Tonnage & Speed as the Night Gyr, but 10Tons less Avalable, but at least it has MASC?

I'm all in for unlocking std/xl engine choice, too. The rating should stay as is IMHO, because of omnipod advantage.

Edited by Van Hoven, 17 December 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[Vonbach]

Just give IS clan style XL's. There ya go.

[Johnny Z]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

their is a problem with just adding Structure when you have an IS XL equipped,

so at New Player Level, Clan are easier to Run though more expensive(to Start)
but at Pro Play, the gap is at 1% or less, considering Perfect Twisting(no Structure Quirks),
with Structure Quirks both sides are now Equal but at Pro Play Clan falls behind,
Edit-

So even if what this says is true, and there are plenty saying it isn't, then there is a balance here between easier to run for new players and tougher to run for expert players.

By numbers alone the balance falls to the new and casual player side. Meaning there is some balance needs to be done to bring the Clan side more towards the Inner Sphere levels. Since TTK and the sim wont really allow for the opposite.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Lykaon, on 17 December 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Why over complicate this?

Set Inner Sphere XL engines to survive a single side torso loss with identical penalties to clan XL damage.

Inner Sphere standard engines are still more viable than clan standard engines because I.S. mechs must choose between things like AC20 or XL twin UAC5s or XL where do I fit my three crit slot dubs? will I have enough slots left over with XL + Endo steel to fit my weapons?

The I.S. XL engine at least hase it's nitche

The Clan XL is still superior to the I.S. XL engine because of it's size and pairing with other low crit cost weight saving techs like 7 slot endo and 2 crit dubs also saves on the space.

This isn't all that complicated. Start with this and see if standard engines actually need anything.

Vonbach, on 17 December 2016 - 11:29 AM, said:

Just give IS clan style XL's. There ya go.

And giving isXL ST structure buffs is even less complicated than that, while still being lore accurate. I don't know why I need to constantly remind you people this. Why make both tech bases identical when you can keep them distinct yet balanced.

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 17 December 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Gentleman Reaper, on 17 December 2016 - 11:35 AM, said:

And giving isXL ST structure buffs is even less complicated than that, while still being lore accurate. I don't know why I need to constantly remind you people this. Why make both tech bases identical when you can keep them distinct yet balanced.

Because MechWarrior Online has been more loyal to its origins than ANY OTHER GAME MADE. Yet it still gets trolled with comments like "take the Battletech out of the title" and this desperate trollery want something to actually point at.

Because no one with a right mind can outright say making one side stronger than the other is good game play and blame MechWarrior online for making balanced gameplay.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 11:41 AM.

[Vonbach]

Clan have all the advantages with clan tech. Death proof XL engines for IS is simply a needed buff.
I don't care in the slightest for lore. If the lore were accurate no one would play IS at all.

[Johnny Z]

Vonbach, on 17 December 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Clan have all the advantages with clan tech. Death proof XL engines for IS is simply a needed buff.
I don't care in the slightest for lore. If the lore were accurate no one would play IS at all.

The lore is accurate in MechWarrior online. Its a first person mech sim with realistic gameplay and graphics depicting a galactic struggle using battlemechs. The finer details of the board game does not make it inaccurate.

You seen how The Old Republic depicts the characters and Jedi and such? Think anyone there is arguing the finer details of balance as to if it is lore accurate or not? Other titles as well.

GET REAL.

MechWarrior Online is as close baring super budget and time, as a video game POSSIBLY can get to the lore.

Edited by Johnny Z, 17 December 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Andi Nagasia, on 17 December 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

their is a problem with just adding Structure when you have an IS XL equipped,

so at New Player Level, Clan are easier to Run though more expensive(to Start)
but at Pro Play, the gap is at 1% or less, considering Perfect Twisting(no Structure Quirks),
with Structure Quirks both sides are now Equal but at Pro Play Clan falls behind,
Edit-

Not sure that's true. If both are twisting, the Clan 'Mech will lose one ST before the IS 'Mech does, but the time it takes to finally remove the other one and kill it would be about the same as the time it takes to finish the one you were working on for the IS 'Mech. In the end, they both die at roughly the same time.

To add, the Clan weapons will likely be a little more lethal than the IS weapons, so there's a trade-off there, too.