9 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

With another change to FW dropdeck tonnages coming I'd like to just post what I've seen going on so far.

Currently IS is overrun by many new players, not just new players, but the new players who don't actually read and look up guides or forum posts. This is problematic because they go in and are bad with their starting cbills. They see they don't have enough money to buy the shiny clan robots, but then don't realize they definitely don't have the money to buy a decent loadout on an IS mech. This leads to many inexperienced players buying an IS mech and oftentimes not even upgrading to double heatsinks or running heavy mechs with builds that optimal light mechs would blow out of the water face to face.

Clans have been saved from this to a greater degree by the more expensive "down payment" on their mechs compared to IS. Clans are also inflated by people who purchased the Marauder IIC recently, bringing in many units all in one place.

The first tonnage increase for IS didn't help anyone except for the already fine competitive groups, as new players either don't have the mechs to fill the tonnage or do not use the tonnage effectively, by doing something such as bringing in the trial LRM Stalker or XL brawler Zeus instead of a Warhammer, Thunderbolt, Grasshopper, or Battlemaster, etc. Now clan dropdeck tonnage is being lowered, which will either make people swap from their basic'd or freshly elited Marauder IICs back to their mastered heavies or force them to take lighter backup mechs. It does stop the 2 Kodiak + 2 Mist Lynx deck however.

I think the issue here is that we have been doing balance based on the top tier competition and meta for a long time, or at least trying to, but now we are dealing with very low tier players going up against a mix of competitive units and occasionally low tier clan PUGs. At the moment in the low tiers clan mechs have the advantage because their disadvantage of having easier to spread damage doesn't matter against players who completely refuse to spread damage. IS tanking and brawling advantages are also disregarded and LRM boats or XL builds in chassis with bad hitboxes are taken instead.

I've seen a large amount of LBX, machine guns, under engining, ERLL, LRMs, and low weapon synergy builds when going up against the IS at the moment.

After thinking over it and listening to Dane's opinions, suggestions, and data, I don't think that allowing IS players to use clan mechs will actually fix the issue. We've been looking at the data from leaderboards when we're dealing with the players who never get on them. You'll still have the IS pugs running cheap builds, bad builds, mixed builds, and bad mechs bringing you down. It would completely even the field between comp players as they'd all have the same exact mechs once an optimal setup is found, but we've been playing FW and the game in general for too long and we have lost touch with, or have never been at, the level of many of the new players coming in.

What I think will actually fix balance between the Clans and IS now would be balancing out the low end of the tech and bringing up underperforming weapons, mechs, and builds through the use of quirks and stat changes. We actually will need to bring LBX up to par with normal ACs, make MGs more useful, give IS small lasers a purpose, boost AC2s, buff LRMs, and give a structure boost to standard engines and repeal the nerfs on many of the IS chassis that were barely holding on in the first place.

The dropdeck tonnage differences are only a bandage for the underlying problems, but I thank PGI for at least trying to do quick stuff to keep the life support going while a real fix can be put in place.

We can also try to split group and solos like we tried in FW3 now that we have the one bucket system to help get rid of the issue of large units crushing the pugs. Casuals vs comps doesn't end well.

[Pariah Devalis]

We also need to reduce the effectiveness of streaks. I think it is the single biggest advantage low skill Clan pilots have over their IS analogues. Against an enemy who cannot aim well, CSSRM launchers are deadly. Yet against any pilot who can aim, the advantages of an SSRM are severely outweighed by their disadvantages in spread and DPS.

The trouble is, how does one reduce the effectiveness of SSRM without making them totally worthless in the upper echelons of the pilot skill levels? Similarly, how does one make LRMs worth taking in T1-2 without making them brokenly OP in the lower tiers?

[MischiefSC]

SSRMs are problematic. CXL is another.

I would support a queue split.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Pariah Devalis, on 15 December 2016 - 06:37 PM, said:

We also need to reduce the effectiveness of streaks. I think it is the single biggest advantage low skill Clan pilots have over their IS analogues. Against an enemy who cannot aim well, CSSRM launchers are deadly. Yet against any pilot who can aim, the advantages of an SSRM are severely outweighed by their disadvantages in spread and DPS.

The trouble is, how does one reduce the effectiveness of SSRM without making them totally worthless in the upper echelons of the pilot skill levels? Similarly, how does one make LRMs worth taking in T1-2 without making them brokenly OP in the lower tiers?

That is a good question. Balancing autoaim weapons to be useful in both the high and low tiers is quite a juggle. Streaks in clan scouting often annihilate bad IS pugs but get destroyed by more coordinated ones.

Streaks could be handled like they were in MW4. Remove the lockon system of the LRMs and instead have them lock onto the location that they were aimed at when they were fired. Throw in velocity and cooldown changes and you have a weapon able to be used against all weight classes equally that also requires the pilot to have some level of aim. The lowered velocity also allows good players to spread the damage by torso twisting away.

LRMs could be given higher velocity and lower arcs with shorter lock on durations and then lose the option to indirect fire without TAG or NARC. This would give more reason to bring TAG and NARC and also help get rid of the playstyle of sitting back asking for locks in an LRM boat that devastates T5 players but ends up with a completely useless team member in T3 and above. The high velocity and etc will allow it to compete with lasers and ballistics. They'll have somewhat more spread damage, but will still likely be able to hit within the duration of a clan ERML from 400m.

[RaptorCWS]

its amazing the clan xl wasnt an issue on the forums until now. you know back when the jags were pushed back to richmond, the bears on nyserta the wolves on crellacor.

[MischiefSC]

RaptorCWS, on 15 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

its amazing the clan xl wasnt an issue on the forums until now. you know back when the jags were pushed back to richmond, the bears on nyserta the wolves on crellacor.

It always was. Since Clans were released.

The uber quirks on IS and units, doing what they're doing now, went IS - because IS was stronger. Most the Clan players *quit*. En masse. Clan population voided when Clan mechs got rebalanced after the prior 2 years of being OP as ****.

Then the quirks were (rightly) removed and Clans were better so units went Clans.

So people have complained about CXL since Clans were released - just now the last stubborn holdouts who played IS even at a disadvantage are largely gone and FW isn't sustainable.

You just ignores the complaints because people were still showing up to play you, even when game mechanics it's gave you an advantage. Now too few are left willing to do so. So maybe we can go ahead and fix this thing we've left broken for years.

[Jack Booted Thug]

RaptorCWS, on 15 December 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

its amazing the clan xl wasnt an issue on the forums until now. you know back when the jags were pushed back to richmond, the bears on nyserta the wolves on crellacor.

When organized merc units switch sides.... it's going to be unbalanced. Of course, I would argue during the period you speak of IS had uber quirked mechs and a tonnage advantage.. it was ugly.

Then they dialed them back a bit and narrowed the tonnage and it was pretty close at that time. Never going to be perfect, but I think it was fairly close.

[RaptorCWS]

Jack Booted Thug, on 15 December 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

When organized merc units switch sides.... it's going to be unbalanced. Of course, I would argue during the period you speak of IS had uber quirked mechs and a tonnage advantage.. it was ugly.

Then they dialed them back a bit and narrowed the tonnage and it was pretty close at that time. Never going to be perfect, but I think it was fairly close.

and 95% of the mercs follow each other around maybe that should be addressed.

[mekabuser]

MischiefSC, on 15 December 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

SSRMs are problematic. CXL is another.

I would support a queue split.

queue split..

glancing at 4.1 changes i THOUGHT finally a quick play option.. which I mistakenly thought would be pug…
I WANT to play the game mode..

I WANT NOTHING to do with teams ..

I haven't played cw in over a year because there was just no fixing dealing with teams

the only way to grow the group queue.. is to have a solo queue for drop deck.. that way maybe 1 in ten will be like. " hey I'm douchey enough to want to use every exploit in the game and pound on other teams, il go join a unit"

the rest of the pugs could then enjoy a game mode that IS fun.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Based on the war logs, it looks like things are much closer to even in the Quick Play modes, while Clans dominate Invasion and have a significant edge in Scouting.