35 replies to this topic

[Kaeb Odellas]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

Easier?
Serious change ingame mechanics that fiddle with the engine, server hit registration, and dozen of other things is simpler but to run some data mining on server logs?

The data is already there - look into your stats - you have weapon logs, and mech logs...how difficult could it be to create a delta of Mech and Weapons?

Instead of reinventing the wheel development time can be used for different content - like moving on in time line and creating new equipment. The equipment don't need to be balanced by anything but feel. Because the usage and W/L will place it.

Yes easier. Adding hardpoints is an XML change and some extra modeling work. Torso pitch is extra modeling work. Adjusting the engine:speed curve can he achieved with a speed quirk (already used by the Summoner). Speed retention on landing is probably sn adjustment of a number somewhere. Thrust vectoring is the most complicated change, but most of the things I listed are XML changes.

You're the one trying to reinvent the wheel here by abandoning all pretense of actual balance and advocating for an entirely new system that would still require a whole lot of development time to design and implement. Whereas buffing the Spider requires a guy to make some numbers higher on a table somewhere

[Karl Streiger]

Wait I said abusing the mechanic won't work because it will hardly change anything.

Of course the mechanic would have major influence on the mechs you see in combat.

When did you have seen a Awesome or a Dragon for the last time?
This combat value makes sure that you don't are matched vs Kodiak and Timberwolfs and if there is one in the other Qp team that it got either a worthless loadout or the other Mechs in his team are even worse.

And for Fp how do you want to abuse it, there is no way you can abuse it.
I admit I'm not sure if a 12 men group with just urban mechs could not zerzerg any pug and small group team. But this is another issue and need a different addressing.

Maybe you mistake this system for something it isn't maybe it would helpful for my explanation when you describe what you have understood with your own words

[Karl Streiger]

Kaeb Odellas, on 16 December 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yes easier. Adding hardpoints is an XML change and some extra modeling work. Torso pitch is extra modeling work. Adjusting the engine:speed curve can he achieved with a speed quirk (already used by the Summoner). Speed retention on landing is probably sn adjustment of a number somewhere. Thrust vectoring is the most complicated change, but most of the things I listed are XML changes.

You're the one trying to reinvent the wheel here by abandoning all pretense of actual balance and advocating for an entirely new system that would still require a whole lot of development time to design and implement. Whereas buffing the Spider requires a guy to make some numbers higher on a table somewhere

Well in this case you have a spider that is equal to the KDK 3 and what about the Awesome toward the Spider - same procedure and then? Victor?
And every month a new mech, at last your balancing team can't complain that they have not enough to work. Because this cycle will restart with each patch, mech or even game mode.

[davoodoo]

Im usually not the one to defend devs when they make cuts, but if adding hardpoints were that easy we wouldnt need hardpoints to begin with.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Wait I said abusing the mechanic won't work because it will hardly change anything.

Of course the mechanic would have major influence on the mechs you see in combat.

When did you have seen a Awesome or a Dragon for the last time?
This combat value makes sure that you don't are matched vs Kodiak and Timberwolfs and if there is one in the other Qp team that it got either a worthless loadout or the other Mechs in his team are even worse.

And for Fp how do you want to abuse it, there is no way you can abuse it.
I admit I'm not sure if a 12 men group with just urban mechs could not zerzerg any pug and small group team. But this is another issue and need a different addressing.

Maybe you mistake this system for something it isn't maybe it would helpful for my explanation when you describe what you have understood with your own words

I understand, that your system distributes points to the mechs, and then MM makes matches around the points these mechs have. Which means, a skilled group cna bring low point mechs and trahs newbies which are running the badly working mechs. Further these people will buff up by your formula the costs for these bad mechs, and all true newbies in those bad mechs will now face better people because magically due to that group doing some trolly stuff upping that mech into ranges where it doesn't belongs to. And when those noobs and newbies don't have the money to use another mech of value, they will be doomed playing against stronegr mechs until they influence the formula again to realise, "wait that mech actually is trash" and put's its points down again.

[davoodoo]

Badly working mech=/=low point mech.

Unless someone intentionally fills mechs with mgs but then you just cant help it can you.

Lets take this monstrosity
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fd958e3f1a53b40
No one can call this build good, yet its filled to absolute max with expensive technology which good builds actually popularised meaning it would cost shitload of points.

Then i assume that this system will be put on top of tiers.

Edited by davoodoo, 16 December 2016 - 10:12 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

This means that this community would consist to the major part of douchbags?
I think I understand your issue - will think about it -

maybe the manual regulation on a timely base would be indeed better but to run it full auto

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

This means that this community would consist to the major part of douchbags?
I think I understand your issue - will think about it -

maybe the manual regulation on a timely base would be indeed better but to run it full auto

No but as usual in pvp games people squeeze out all they can to achieve their goals, and what i said is just one legitimate tool given to them by the mechanics.
A good system is one being proper by idea and free of such holes. otherwise we end up with similar stuff all the previous FW iterations had. I ahven't posted any sytem yet as I haven't found any myself that weren't having some of the holes people could abuse. it may be that there doesn't even exists one unless PGI would make what most MMO's do, a faction bound account. But this would make many other things broken too until we would have a timeline allowing compelte crosstech via something in the lore talking about salvageable stuff.

if we had gotten a FW only amongst IS before clanmechs were made I cna ensure oyu we would still had balanc eproblems as the majority of them were not resolving by the mechs instead by player and unit behavior.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Well in this case you have a spider that is equal to the KDK 3 and what about the Awesome toward the Spider - same procedure and then? Victor?
And every month a new mech, at last your balancing team can't complain that they have not enough to work. Because this cycle will restart with each patch, mech or even game mode.

That's not how this works. You don't pick two random mechs and compare them to each other to see if they're good. You pick a baseline standard within each class or role and compare everything to that. If the KDK 3 is what you want every Assault mech to be, then you buff the Assaults to that level.

Balancing will never, ever stop, even if they stop adding mechs. There's always adjustments to be made, because the playerbase will always find something you didn't think of. That's just how it is. Automating the process a bit with a data-driven approach isn't a bad idea, but using the data to separate the mechs into good or bad tiers is the wrong way to do it. Use the data to make the mechs better.

[Karl Streiger]

Kaeb Odellas, on 16 December 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

That's not how this works. You don't pick two random mechs and compare them to each other to see if they're good. You pick a baseline standard within each class or role and compare everything to that. If the KDK 3 is what you want every Assault mech to be, then you buff the Assaults to that level.

Balancing will never, ever stop, even if they stop adding mechs. There's always adjustments to be made, because the playerbase will always find something you didn't think of. That's just how it is. Automating the process a bit with a data-driven approach isn't a bad idea, but using the data to separate the mechs into good or bad tiers is the wrong way to do it. Use the data to make the mechs better.

As said I'm the last person who would not want to have the base line balance your speaking of.
Unfortunately stuff like the look of a Mech is more important over its feel. If it wouldn't have the KDK in May it might have been the Blood Asp someday.

The uberquirks were a desperate measure to bring all Mechs on the same level but we know how it turned out.
Unfortunately I can't say if those extremes did happen because of the FP Invasion level design or had their cause in pvp players maxing everything out even when facing pugs.
In this case you can't create a fair balancing with any system - you need to analyse pure 12 men vs 12 men, or 3 lance sized groups with other 3 lance sized groups.

Problem is with lacking tactical option because of the map design the deciding factor is the mech and the loadout - in case of chokepoint slugfests simple enough the kodiak.

However this is a complete different construction yard - my proposed suggestion should not create an equal for the KDK but the option to bury them in dead mech corpses when wave after wave of suicidal Panther and urban mechs spawn against them

[Kaeb Odellas]

Karl Streiger, on 16 December 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

As said I'm the last person who would not want to have the base line balance your speaking of. Unfortunately stuff like the look of a Mech is more important over its feel. If it wouldn't have the KDK in May it might have been the Blood Asp someday. The uberquirks were a desperate measure to bring all Mechs on the same level but we know how it turned out. Unfortunately I can't say if those extremes did happen because of the FP Invasion level design or had their cause in pvp players maxing everything out even when facing pugs. In this case you can't create a fair balancing with any system - you need to analyse pure 12 men vs 12 men, or 3 lance sized groups with other 3 lance sized groups. Problem is with lacking tactical option because of the map design the deciding factor is the mech and the loadout - in case of chokepoint slugfests simple enough the kodiak. However this is a complete different construction yard - my proposed suggestion should not create an equal for the KDK but the option to bury them in dead mech corpses when wave after wave of suicidal Panther and urban mechs spawn against them

Quirks only failed because:
1. They were being used to balance IS vs Clan tech, which is the wrong way to go about doing that. Balance the base tech, not the mechs themselves.

2. Lack of good follow-up from the devs. Many mechs were given some quirks that were insufficient in strength and simply left alone. Many were OP and then nerfed to oblivion and left useless for years.

Now that we have a dedicated balance guy, we might see some movement in this regard.

[Albino Boo]

If you put a 12 man KCOM in trial mechs they would still beat a low skilled pug in min/maxed mechs. No matter how you "balance" mechs you can't balance pilot skill in the system you propose. If you want a MM in CW then its has run like QP.

[Karl Streiger]

You can never balance skill and you never should have - you should only make sure that in a shooting contest all have the same rifles.

[Karl Streiger]

I have taken some time to think about the base line balance.
Well I think I can explain it almost perfectly with the refrigerator.
This 45ton Mech should be a premium example of a Hunter Killer and heavy scout
The prime config plus it's high speed should allow it to keep up with most known lights and use the precision range and damage of his ERPPC to devastate his prey, before they can even shoot back or hit a target that is as fast as them.

In Mwo however without range brackets plus velocity vs dot of lasers the ferret can only hit targets that can shoot back with much more ease last not least his targets the lights can easily take a single hit by an erppc but might brake when hit by a death star array of small pulse lasers

There is the base balance complete lacking - it might be acceptable if PPCs are anti assault rifles but this means they need a far lower cycle time and much higher damage.
In any case the base balance would need a complete redesign of mwo - I have written some thousand posts about this topic and have also collected and calculate some hundred of hours all the available data in this regard.

The game is not even close to a base balance - so instead of attempting another fruit less attempt to fix what need months of planing, this proposed idea just move the parameters of combat

The refrigerator can become the scout and hunter Killer of the underhive of scout mode, and the Scrow and Griffin while not any of them is a scout can dominate the higher tiers

[I_AM_ZUUL]

IS just held off having a world taken for the very first time the past cycle.... I agree with EVERY SINGLE person who has a Clan badge (shociking how that works, huh?) that says that everything is balanced and Clan mechs arent OP, now!!!!!!!!!

[Karl Streiger]

Oh ehm wrong topic?

Btw I have experience something... well strange?
The Kdk 3 while hands down one of the best mechs in the game is virtually unplayable for a new pilot - learning by doing doesn't work - when your are seen you are dead - torso twist range is with basics skills almost non existent - I really should have played it when it was great and I had it even preordered.

So the squirks based on how they are delivered need to be a modification for the combat vakue either, don't have to only when squirks are a set of advantages and disadvantages at the same time (more armor, less twisting as example)