38 replies to this topic

[Core310]

I know it seems like a really stupid question but I still wonder is it worth it?

[Mcgral18]

AMS has never really been worth it


The Jesus Box still has passive benefits, and there's rarely any sacrifice, so you might as well, Myth Lynx being a sole exception

[Albino Boo]

AMS has always been a waste of tonnage. Radar derp and cover deals with lrms far better than AMS. ECM is great aid to survival in general and doubly so in a light or medium.

[RestosIII]

Albino Boo, on 16 December 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

AMS has always been a waste of tonnage. Radar derp and cover deals with lrms far better than AMS. ECM is great aid to survival in general and doubly so in a light or medium.

I wouldn't call it a total waste when you have 2-3. Then Clan LRM launchers are just worthless.

[Lykaon]

Albino Boo, on 16 December 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

AMS has always been a waste of tonnage. Radar derp and cover deals with lrms far better than AMS. ECM is great aid to survival in general and doubly so in a light or medium.

In the QP queue AMS is worth it because you may need to defend less aware team mates from poor choices they have made. And occasionally you may run across a situation like Polar Highlands with enemy LRMs blocking out the sun.

Had the afore mentioned Polar highlands issue happen recently but my team had a Kitfox with triple AMS + ECM and my Marauder IIc had an AMS. So I asked the Kitfox pilot to follow me towards the LRMs. He did and we took out two dedicated LRM boats all the while tearing their vollies apart on our approach.


So I say AMS is frequently more for your team than for you especially if you know how to not stand out in the rain.

[Felicitatem Parco]

"AMS is worthless"

A single 3x AMS kitfox can use his 1.5 tons of equipment and 3-4 tons of ammo (4.5-5.5 tons total) to shut down a Quad LRM20 Mech with 8 tons ammo. He then has his ECM and ERMLs to do stuff with.

Yeah, totally worthless... as long as the enemy does not bring LRMs.

Shooting down a single ton of LRMs effectively adds several tons of armor to your teammates.

[MechaBattler]

A singe AMS isn't worth it. ECM still has some merit.

[Tristan Winter]

AMS represents something of a paradox, for me.

Most people on the forum will tell you they almost never use AMS, except if they can equip 2 or 3. And even then, they may not equip it. This is unlike ECM, which people will always equip, unless they have to sacrifice a good omnipod with hardpoints to get it.

Most people will tell you that AMS is very ineffective, and that you're better off spending the tonnage on weapons, heatsinks or a bigger engine.

However, almost no one wants AMS to be buffed.

[Barantor]

Tristan Winter, on 16 December 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

AMS represents something of a paradox, for me.

Most people on the forum will tell you they almost never use AMS, except if they can equip 2 or 3. And even then, they may not equip it. This is unlike ECM, which people will always equip, unless they have to sacrifice a good omnipod with hardpoints to get it.

Most people will tell you that AMS is very ineffective, and that you're better off spending the tonnage on weapons, heatsinks or a bigger engine.

However, almost no one wants AMS to be buffed.

Part of the reason nobody wants them buffed now is that lrms are right about where they need to be without major changes to them. It's one of the few weapons with a piece of equipment designed specifically to counter it.

LRMs need a redesign, but until that happens both lrms and ams need to stay as they are.

[Mcgral18]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

"AMS is worthless"

A single 3x AMS kitfox can use his 1.5 tons of equipment and 3-4 tons of ammo (4.5-5.5 tons total) to shut down a Quad LRM20 Mech with 8 tons ammo. He then has his ECM and ERMLs to do stuff with.

Yeah, totally worthless... as long as the enemy does not bring LRMs.

Shooting down a single ton of LRMs effectively adds several tons of armor to your teammates.

But a Cheetah could go Kill the Lurm boat

I don't like having to save the Potatos



They are a good counter to NARC, that much is true

[Tristan Winter]

Barantor, on 16 December 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

Part of the reason nobody wants them buffed now is that lrms are right about where they need to be without major changes to them. It's one of the few weapons with a piece of equipment designed specifically to counter it.

LRMs need a redesign, but until that happens both lrms and ams need to stay as they are.

It would be possible to make AMS more effective against SRMs and SSRMs without nerfing LRMs, by regulating AMS damage vs the health of each missile type. This is a simple fix, another .xml edit.

[Barantor]

Tristan Winter, on 16 December 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

It would be possible to make AMS more effective against SRMs and SSRMs without nerfing LRMs, by regulating AMS damage vs the health of each missile type. This is a simple fix, another .xml edit.

Doing that way without affecting lrms could work and boost their use against splat srm builds, I like it.

[Albino Boo]

RestosIII, on 16 December 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't call it a total waste when you have 2-3. Then Clan LRM launchers are just worthless.

Lykaon, on 16 December 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

In the QP queue AMS is worth it because you may need to defend less aware team mates from poor choices they have made. And occasionally you may run across a situation like Polar Highlands with enemy LRMs blocking out the sun.

Had the afore mentioned Polar highlands issue happen recently but my team had a Kitfox with triple AMS + ECM and my Marauder IIc had an AMS. So I asked the Kitfox pilot to follow me towards the LRMs. He did and we took out two dedicated LRM boats all the while tearing their vollies apart on our approach.


So I say AMS is frequently more for your team than for you especially if you know how to not stand out in the rain.

You can do the same with a 1 ton ecm.

Tristan Winter, on 16 December 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

AMS represents something of a paradox, for me.

Most people on the forum will tell you they almost never use AMS, except if they can equip 2 or 3. And even then, they may not equip it. This is unlike ECM, which people will always equip, unless they have to sacrifice a good omnipod with hardpoints to get it.

Most people will tell you that AMS is very ineffective, and that you're better off spending the tonnage on weapons, heatsinks or a bigger engine.

However, almost no one wants AMS to be buffed.

I would be perfectly happy for AMS to be buffed but it still wouldn't change the fact that a 1 ton ecm can do the same job as triple ams with ammo. AMS no matter how much they buff it wont stop your team's paper dolls coming up showing the holes in your team's armor.

[jss78]

Tristan Winter, on 16 December 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

AMS represents something of a paradox, for me.

Most people on the forum will tell you they almost never use AMS, except if they can equip 2 or 3. And even then, they may not equip it. This is unlike ECM, which people will always equip, unless they have to sacrifice a good omnipod with hardpoints to get it.

Most people will tell you that AMS is very ineffective, and that you're better off spending the tonnage on weapons, heatsinks or a bigger engine.

However, almost no one wants AMS to be buffed.

Especially after that AMS damage buff (was it last spring?), I feel AMS is pretty effective for tonnage... it's just that in high tiers, LRM's aren't quite so common anyway, and due to various factors (map design, LRM mechanics, Radar Depr.) they're quite easily evaded.

So... worth its tonnage many times over, when you're getting pelted by LRMs ... but that just isn't often enough.

I still bring AMS when I can, but I feel most of the time it fires to cover team mates instead of myself (although if you think in terms of teamplay, that's just as good as covering yourself; doesn't matter whose armour you're saving).

MechaBattler, on 16 December 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

A singe AMS isn't worth it. ECM still has some merit.

Some merit as in, no-one in his right mind would NOT take it if he can.

[Dark Wooki33 IIC]

ECM hides your movement and paperdoll -> always usefull
AMS only helps against lrm and to some lesser extent against (s)srm/narc -> wasted tonnage on 50% of the matches

On the other hand if you have an assault or something slow with a big topprofile (marauder or similarstuff) ams becomes ok.

[Lyoto Machida]

RestosIII, on 16 December 2016 - 03:17 PM, said:

I wouldn't call it a total waste when you have 2-3. Then Clan LRM launchers are just worthless.

Lykaon, on 16 December 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

In the QP queue AMS is worth it because you may need to defend less aware team mates from poor choices they have made. And occasionally you may run across a situation like Polar Highlands with enemy LRMs blocking out the sun.

Had the afore mentioned Polar highlands issue happen recently but my team had a Kitfox with triple AMS + ECM and my Marauder IIc had an AMS. So I asked the Kitfox pilot to follow me towards the LRMs. He did and we took out two dedicated LRM boats all the while tearing their vollies apart on our approach.


So I say AMS is frequently more for your team than for you especially if you know how to not stand out in the rain.

Have they fixed the 3x AMS issue where it does the same damage reduction as 2x AMS?

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

"AMS is worthless"

A single 3x AMS kitfox can use his 1.5 tons of equipment and 3-4 tons of ammo (4.5-5.5 tons total) to shut down a Quad LRM20 Mech with 8 tons ammo. He then has his ECM and ERMLs to do stuff with.

Yeah, totally worthless... as long as the enemy does not bring LRMs.

Shooting down a single ton of LRMs effectively adds several tons of armor to your teammates.

But that one ton of LRMs really only equates to about two tons of armor (72 points) when you factor in LRM hitting at a rate of 40%...and I'm pretty sure the average player isn't hitting at 40%.

And how many tons of AMS ammo does that require? I have no idea...serious question.

Edited by Lyoto Machida, 16 December 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

jss78, on 16 December 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

Some merit as in, no-one in his right mind would NOT take it if he can.

Then I must be a madman, because very few of the KFX builds that I run even use the KFX-C arm.

ECM is useful, yes, in the initial phases of the fight. When the fight is joined, and people start popping UAVs, you'll find that AMS still has some merit; especially as a light mech vs. streak-6 boats.

Somebody covered it before that AMS vs LRM effectiveness is a tricky thing; it's like a two-sided exponential curve. If your AMS outnumbers enemy LRM, the LRM becomes useless; if the enemy LRM outnumbers AMS, AMS becomes useless.

[Bombast]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

"AMS is worthless"

A single 3x AMS kitfox can use his 1.5 tons of equipment and 3-4 tons of ammo (4.5-5.5 tons total) to shut down a Quad LRM20 Mech with 8 tons ammo. He then has his ECM and ERMLs to do stuff with.

Yeah, totally worthless... as long as the enemy does not bring LRMs.

Shooting down a single ton of LRMs effectively adds several tons of armor to your teammates.

This isn't a typical AMS usage, however. Mostly because the average mech caps out at one hard point.

I'd say a single AMS hard point is about as useful as a single missile hard point, which is to say not very useful at all, unless you're coordinating with other people who are using their single hard point.

But like every other piece of equipment in the game, AMS becomes more potent as your ability to boat it goes up.

Edited by Bombast, 16 December 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[jss78]

Fox With A Shotgun, on 16 December 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Then I must be a madman, because very few of the KFX builds that I run even use the KFX-C arm.

ECM is useful, yes, in the initial phases of the fight. When the fight is joined, and people start popping UAVs, you'll find that AMS still has some merit; especially as a light mech vs. streak-6 boats.

Somebody covered it before that AMS vs LRM effectiveness is a tricky thing; it's like a two-sided exponential curve. If your AMS outnumbers enemy LRM, the LRM becomes useless; if the enemy LRM outnumbers AMS, AMS becomes useless.

Fair point -- I was thinking in strictly IS battlemech terms, with omnimechs the choices become more complex. On my clanner account I believe I also have a Kit Fox without ECM.

As far as the exponential curve thing, I recall seeing some numbers to that effect too. Though I'm not quite sold on the uselessness of bringing a single AMS. The thing is, you're rarely alone out there. (Well OK, SOME people seem to always be alone out there...) I find that even if just two guys bring a single AMS, and the AMS bubbles overlap, it makes a substantial dent to incoming LRM fire, especially those long streams of clan LRM's.

Edited by jss78, 16 December 2016 - 03:57 PM.

[Xetelian]

I don't bring AMS
I always bring ECM when possible