156 replies to this topic

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Lily from animove, on 03 January 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

but thats exactly why the tech balanc eis rather irrelevant, as clantech itself compeltely differently turns out depending on which mech it is used. we need chassis, or even deeper variant balance, because when this is achived IS/clan blaances out as well.

Sorry, Lily, but no. Mechs can be better or worse depending on a number of factors (geometry, hardpoint types/numbers/locations/locked equipment/max engine etc.), but tech is too big of a factor to ignore. Not long ago the balance seemed to be pretty ok between IS and Clan in general, but then the Clans suddenly got the Kodiak and everything went to hell. Funnily, if you look closely, the KDKs, including the KDK3 are actually nothing outstanding in themselves. Big humanoid assault with high mounted boating-friendly hardpoints. IS had things like that since always (Banshees, Battlemasters, Maulers), and - unless overquirked - these mechs were still not OP. But mix these mech variables (good combination of weight, hardpoints and geometry) with clan tech and BOOM. Balance gone. KDK3 is now stripped of any quirks and after a total of 4 nerfs (2 indirect - to weapons it used) and is STILL considered the best mech. Only way to make it not the best is to overquirk it's competition to high heaven. And that how much clan tech tipped the scale.

The same issue with lights. ACH is just a light that can boat lasers and have good hitboxes, just as many IS lights can. But these advantages+clan tech makes it simply the best, only the totally overquirked and undersized locust can compete with it. If lights would get globally buffed to make them on par with other mech classes, that buff would make ACH OP again.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 03 January 2017 - 06:01 AM.

[kesmai]

The kdk-3 is a prime, but a bad example.
PGI did screw that mech completly with it's 'fantasy' hardpoints.
The real problem is full free customization. This problem was there even without clanmechs.
Non omni clan mechs just added all the tech, weight and slot advantage on top of the possibility to freely use engines, chassis options and hardpoints (often inflated or even made up by pgi for whatever reason).
I see a underlying design flaw and not clan tech per se as a problem.

Edited by kesmai, 03 January 2017 - 06:15 AM.

[brroleg]

here is exact stats http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

C-ER LRG LASER
HPS (heat per second): 2.11

ER LARGE LASER
HPS (heat per second): 1.78

2.11-1.78 = 0.33

DOUBLE HEAT SINK
Heat dissipation rate (both for IS and Clan): 0.15

0.33 / 0.15 = 2.2

Clan ERLL needs 2.2 more heatsinks than IS ERLL

Clane ERLL weight 4t
Double heatsink weight 1t

4+1+1 = 6 ton

6 ton (and 5 crit slots) is true weight of C-ERLL, while IS ERLL weight is 5 tons (and 2 crit slots)


BUT TEH CLAN RANGE

Every IS mech with more than 2 energy hardpoints has +10% energy range quirk, which makes IS ERLL same range as C-ERLL

BUT TEH CLAN TC

Sure. Lets count for two C-ERLL build.
Each C-ERLL needs additional 2 double heatsinks to be equal to is tech in heat management so:

2 * Clan ERLL + 4 Double Heatsinks + 1TC = 13 ton and 11 crit slots for 1539 range

Now lets count for two IS ERLL build

2 * IS ERLL = 10 ton and 4 crit slots for 1485 (cause +10% quirk on every mech) range

So clan pays additional 3 tons and 7 crit slots for 54m range advantage.

BUT TEH CLAN DAMAGE

Works only against potato IS players, cause even partly sane IS player will be able to avoid/spread those Clan lightsabers damage

[Sjorpha]

XL engines is the biggest imbalance, so that should be fixed first.

DHS is very easy to fix, just make the IS DHS a little better that clan DHS to compensate for the extra crit slot.

[Lily from animove]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 03 January 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Sorry, Lily, but no. Mechs can be better or worse depending on a number of factors (geometry, hardpoint types/numbers/locations/locked equipment/max engine etc.), but tech is too big of a factor to ignore. Not long ago the balance seemed to be pretty ok between IS and Clan in general, but then the Clans suddenly got the Kodiak and everything went to hell. Funnily, if you look closely, the KDKs, including the KDK3 are actually nothing outstanding in themselves. Big humanoid assault with high mounted boating-friendly hardpoints. IS had things like that since always (Banshees, Battlemasters, Maulers), and - unless overquirked - these mechs were still not OP. But mix these mech variables (good combination of weight, hardpoints and geometry) with clan tech and BOOM. Balance gone. KDK3 is now stripped of any quirks and after a total of 4 nerfs (2 indirect - to weapons it used) and is STILL considered the best mech. Only way to make it not the best is to overquirk it's competition to high heaven. And that how much clan tech tipped the scale.

The same issue with lights. ACH is just a light that can boat lasers and have good hitboxes, just as many IS lights can. But these advantages+clan tech makes it simply the best, only the totally overquirked and undersized locust can compete with it. If lights would get globally buffed to make them on par with other mech classes, that buff would make ACH OP again.

read what you said, so balance was pretty ok, clanners got the kodiak and balance broke. So thats clearly not a tech relate dissue its a chassis related issue the Kodiak did (and not even all kodiaks, its the KDK-3). Those number of factors you summed up (geometry, hardpoint types/numbers/locations/locked equipment/max engine) are exactly the chassis/variant issues we need to look at and not the tech. if you expect to fix it via tech, one change affects a LOAD of emchs which is a near uncontrollable impact on the balance. But when you have a specific chassis change, that change only affects the chassis, and thats why chassis/variant related changes is the way to go. it is mostlikely also why PGI doesn't wants to add new weapon systems, it would be an apocalyptical strike to the current balance adding these.

Edited by Lily from animove, 03 January 2017 - 10:01 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Lily from animove, on 03 January 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

read what you said, so balance was pretty ok, clanners got the kodiak and balance broke. So thats clearly not a tech relate dissue its a chassis related issue the Kodiak did (and not even all kodiaks, its the KDK-3). Those number of factors you summed up (geometry, hardpoint types/numbers/locations/locked equipment/max engine) are exactly the chassis/variant issues we need to look at and not the tech. if you expect to fix it via tech, one change affects a LOAD of emchs which is a near uncontrollable impact on the balance. But when you have a specific chassis change, that change only affects the chassis, and thats why chassis/variant related changes is the way to go. it is mostlikely also why PGI doesn't wants to add new weapon systems, it would be an apocalyptical strike to the current balance adding these.

The balance was pretty ok, because the Clans did not have one decent assault. All their assaults was usable solely due to clan tech. If fitted with IS tech, they would be utterly useless. Now they have one very good assaults in terms of geometry and hardpoints and THERE IS ACTUALLY NO WAY to prevent one of its models from being the best of the best. 4 nerfs for the KDK3 and KDK3 is still the #1 mech. I actually cannot be nerfed any more, not without negative quirks. Of course, somebody might say 'why bother, there will always be 1 mech that is the best', and he would be right. The problem is, if we do not balance the techs, those best mechs will always be clans, and in the environment where you can almost always pick the mech you want, and thus clans will always have advantage in FW. Such imbalance is bad news for any pvp game.

In other words: simplifying as much as it is possible, we can say that there are 3 main factors that decide whether a battlemech is good: geometry, hardpoints, tech. The best is mech IS mech can be very good at 2 of those things and mediocre at the third (tech). Currently any new clan battlemech that will be very good in one aspect and decent in another will perform above anything Inner Sphere has to offer. (See KDK3: very good hardpoints and decent geometry was enough to become the best mech in the game, while i.e. mauler with Very good hardpoints and good geometry was top choice only thanks to overquirking).

--------------
We either balance the tech more or we get back to overquirking IS mechs. No third way here.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 03 January 2017 - 01:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Did I really see an argument in there saying the solution to IS/Clan XL balance is best represented... by a LB10x 4xsrm4 Orion?

Are you ******* high?

Okay, tell you what. I'll take a 65-75 ton Clan mech with any of a wide variety of builds and wreck the **** out of it all day every day.

If I came here saying Clans are OP because I can run an LRM30 Adder why would anyone argue with me for a few pages?

[Y E O N N E]

Lily from animove, on 03 January 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

read what you said, so balance was pretty ok, clanners got the kodiak and balance broke.

IS got whacked by the nerf-bat at the same time the Kodiak dropped. Nerfed yet again after re-scale, so there's that, too.

The Kodiak exacerbated things, but it wasn't the sole contributor.

[Lily from animove]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 03 January 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

--------------
We either balance the tech more or we get back to overquirking IS mechs. No third way here.

nonsense, nothing would be wrong with negative quirks, thats just PGI's decision that they don't want to use them. If you go and change tehc then good luck having to rebuff all the clanmechs back that get overnerfed by the tech adjustments. Because you will then strart to giving our overquirks for some clanmechs too.

you can' set the base line of balance at the top performing mechs level, that causes superquirks and powercreep. you need to find the medium level or the above medium level and put donw overperformers and pull up low performers.

Edited by Lily from animove, 04 January 2017 - 02:08 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

nonsense, nothing would be wrong with negative quirks, thats just PGI's decision that they don't want to use them. If you go and change tehc then good luck having to rebuff all the clanmechs back that get overnerfed by the tech adjustments. Because you will then strart to giving our overquirks for some clanmechs too.

you can' set the base line of balance at the top performing mechs level, that causes superquirks and powercreep. you need to find the medium level or the above medium level and put donw overperformers and pull up low performers.

You don't find negative quirks bad, I don't find them bad too. Unfortunately, many clan players do, and they were quite vocal about it, to the point PGI decided they do more bad than good to their product. Russ even promised to not use them again as far as I remember.

[Andi Nagasia]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 04 January 2017 - 08:41 AM, said:

You don't find negative quirks bad, I don't find them bad too. Unfortunately, many clan players do, and they were quite vocal about it, to the point PGI decided they do more bad than good to their product. Russ even promised to not use them again as far as I remember.

people in general dont like negatives, just like back when Modules had bonuses & penalties,
i cant agree that choosing to not have Negative Quirks for Clan Mechs was a Bad Decision for PGI,
if all Clan Mechs need to have a -10%ERML Range quirk for Balance, why not just reduce ERML Range by 10%?
if this was perhaps negative and positive Quirks for all mechs i could possibly agree, but all +for IS & all -for Clan? no,

this game is at the closest its ever been when it comes to IS vs Clan Balance,
and thats for Any MechWarrior Game, even most of TT, PGI has had some Bumps along the way, but they are getting there,
if IS gained XL ST loss survivability, and Clan Mechs gained some more Structure Quirks, TTK would go way up,
and im sure the game would be Near perfact Balance, and hopefully get more tech(IS-ERSL/ML ect)

Lily from animove, on 04 January 2017 - 01:35 AM, said:

nonsense, nothing would be wrong with negative quirks, thats just PGI's decision that they don't want to use them. If you go and change tehc then good luck having to rebuff all the clanmechs back that get overnerfed by the tech adjustments. Because you will then strart to giving our overquirks for some clanmechs too.

you can' set the base line of balance at the top performing mechs level, that causes superquirks and powercreep. you need to find the medium level or the above medium level and put donw overperformers and pull up low performers.

perhaps with the New Skill Tree we will see Mechs like the TBR get less Twist Angle,
decupiling Engine Rating, and twist Speed would also help a good deal,

[Deathlike]

To answer the silly title's rhetorical question, the Clan XL engine is a much significant factor than 2-slot DHS. Full stop.

[Lily from animove]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 January 2017 - 12:38 PM, said:

perhaps with the New Skill Tree we will see Mechs like the TBR get less Twist Angle,
decupiling Engine Rating, and twist Speed would also help a good deal,

the new skilltrees may be able to fix or mess things up. BUT since you cannot unlock all skills and have to just choose 30/70 skills, this means any balance attemp done within these trees would mean having to payback the players what they invested if the skill tree values change, otherwise a lot poeple get mad when PGI decides to alter the trees and people have to pay money to change the tree just because PGI decided to do that.

[JigglyMoobs]

So I checked my stats today. Surprise surprise my most carries heavy mech is the blk-6 not the time. It also has the highest kdr.

I CAN see that the timby is still a much more versatile mech, but in terms of raw power and durability, it does not outshine even the post nerf blk.

That seems to throw a wrench into this whole xl makes me more fragile than an eggshell chandelier theme of this thread.

[Y E O N N E]

JigglyMoobs, on 06 January 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

So I checked my stats today. Surprise surprise my most carries heavy mech is the blk-6 not the time. It also has the highest kdr.

I CAN see that the timby is still a much more versatile mech, but in terms of raw power and durability, it does not outshine even the post nerf blk.

That seems to throw a wrench into this whole xl makes me more fragile than an eggshell chandelier theme of this thread.

Does it? You seem to only ever run PPC+Gauss on your TBR, and that is not the most flexible of loadouts. Too easy to push on, and I've exploited that against you many times.

I also exploited your isXL engine, too.

I mean, I have a KDR in my Mist Lynx B that can almost go toe to toe with my Locusts, and bests my KDR in certain Marauders and Blackjacks (two of my most-played chassis, after Locust), but I would not say it throws a wrench into the analysis concluding that the Mist Lynx sucks.

[JigglyMoobs]

Yeonne Greene, on 06 January 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Does it? You seem to only ever run PPC+Gauss on your TBR, and that is not the most flexible of loadouts. Too easy to push on, and I've exploited that against you many times.

I also exploited your isXL engine, too.

I mean, I have a KDR in my Mist Lynx B that can almost go toe to toe with my Locusts, and bests my KDR in certain Marauders and Blackjacks (two of my most-played chassis, after Locust), but I would not say it throws a wrench into the analysis concluding that the Mist Lynx sucks.

Can be exploited doesn't equal bad. The Gauss erppc timby is vulnerable to hard pushes, but only if you make mistakes or if you need to hold the position.

Similarly, with the XL, you can be vulnerable if you have to deal with many attackers from different angles, or late in game when you get sniped from an unexpected angle.

Lastly, since there are "many times" you've exploited this, maybe I should take more notice of which mech Mr. Yeonne Green is in and deal with you first.

[Y E O N N E]

JigglyMoobs, on 06 January 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Can be exploited doesn't equal bad.

It does if it is a reliable exploit in all starting scenarios.

Quote

The Gauss erppc timby is vulnerable to hard pushes, but only if you make mistakes or if you need to hold the position.

True, and that is a reliable exploit in Pubs, less so in leagues. It isn't bad, it just isn't surprising that you do better with the more flexible laser vomit BK, was my point. There are similarly flexible TBR builds.

Quote

Similarly, with the XL, you can be vulnerable if you have to deal with many attackers from different angles, or late in game when you get sniped from an unexpected angle.

Or when the one guy shooting you knows there is an XL involved and has trigger discipline, which is actually what happened (referring to the recent-ish game where I put you down with my BLR with two and a half shots to your RT). This is a reliable exploit no matter the level or style of play, and that is why it is bad. Better than STD, sure, but not comparable to cXL.

Quote

Lastly, since there are "many times" you've exploited this, maybe I should take more notice of which mech Mr. Yeonne Green is in and deal with you first.

No, not the boop chute again! D: