102 replies to this topic

[Scythe Kagato]

Clans so OP

[MischiefSC]

Kin3ticX, on 18 December 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

I'd say its about 80% the players and 20% the tech. And I am thinking more about the omnipods than I am about the XL engines and the better weapons. Its just easier to make good Clan dropdecks.

Complaining about the tech is basically asking PGI to do a better job with 20% of the problem. Yeah, there is a problem but what can PGI do that would make a difference in CW? Tonnage helps the IS pugs beat the Clan pugs but the excellent IS units dont need the tonnage. That makes it less fun for them. Tonnage handicaps should be given out with a CW specific tier system and not just to anyone.

There are just not enough good players to go around. The good ones tend to join each other because they dont want to carry bads that do 300 damage in 30 minutes of play.

Except that that 80% of the population problem is caused by that 20% tech problem.

Nobody likes to play at a disadvantage. It's why people don't just play whatever they want in comp matches; they play the best mech for the slot/map/strat even if the difference is 5% unless they have a significant experience edge in something almost as good. Because losing a match because of slightly better tech vs winning a match is frustrating.

So as soon as players get good enough to understand how the tech works and how good builds and mechs work they start to see the difference and they go where the better tech is.

They stay there until they get completely and totally bored, then they go back to IS.

For a bit.

Then they go back to Clans.

Because teamwork absolutely can and does bridge that gap just fine but better is still better and people are on the average going to chase the better options.

Even most the Clan 'pugs' are either people from teams that don't really play or alts for people who are in a IS unit. Why? Because while we don't want to leave our units and our friends we still want to play with the better toys sometimes. Before stats got wiped my Baby Seal account only pugged (because I ddin't tell anyone that was me) and had a 3.4 win/loss and only ever pugged Clans. Only mechs I owned were EBJs, KDKs, ACH and SCR. I wasn't alone and many of the people I pugged with would joke about the same thing; that they were pugging on the Clan side but in a Unit on the Clan side and just wanted to play with the advantages for a change.

The population disparity is caused by the tech disparity. Fix the tech disparity and the population disparity is easier to manage. Bribing people to play inferior tech (by giving them cbill bonuses or tonnage bonuses) isn't actually fixing anything.

[Commander A9]

Not the mech.

It's the team behind it.

Your ability or inability to use teamwork is what makes or breaks your match.

...and we just got a ghost drop tonight.

Edited by Commander A9, 18 December 2016 - 10:14 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Commander A9, on 18 December 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

Not the mech.

It's the team behind it.

Your ability or inability to use teamwork is what makes or breaks your match.

...and we just got a ghost drop tonight.

So if you dropped in a match vs identically skilled players but you were all in stock Orions, Dragons and Highlanders you'd stll go 50/50 if they were in optimized mechs?

Quit being silly. Absolutely no question bringing good mechs and the difference in good vs bad mechs and difference in tech has a huge impact on matches. More to the point part of being a good pilot is knowing how to identify, build and play good mechs.

Teamwork is OP and is why even a top tier comp player can't consistently carry matches in QP.

However good players prefer to take good robbits over bad robbits and so will gravitate to good robbits. So good teams gravitate to where the advantage is.

Or maybe the population disparity for the last year never happened? Majority of units moving to Clans was just random happenstance?

I'm all for the value of teamwork. However pretending there isn't a tech imbalance is what we've tried to do for 2 years. Look at the population, enjoy your first of likely very, very many ghost drops and then tell me how that has worked out.

[1 21 Giggawatts]

Perhaps once a few of the big merc units go IS and start to take advantage of outrageous drop deck tonnage - people will see that it is in fact down to teamwork and the fact that new players start as IS, and they are terrible not because they are bad at games, but because this is a game which is actually tough to master.

So obviously if you are not filling your IS group with 12 in teamspeak you run the very real risk of some dude bringing his dual LRM10 Huginn to an invasion map.

Eveyone should just put the rattle back in the pram for now and see what happens when 12 co-ordinated folks get together on an IS side. Now THAT would be data id love to see.

Again if they made FW/CW Tier 3 and above and banned trials - you would get better matches.

It would also give new players something to really aim for and unlock, and to be honest getting to tier 3 really shouldnt take that long, but at least it would mean the player has probably mastered a couple of mechs and stuck some modules on them!

Edited by 1 21 Giggawatts, 19 December 2016 - 12:22 AM.

[MischiefSC]

1 21 Giggawatts, on 19 December 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

Perhaps once a few of the big merc units go IS and start to take advantage of outrageous drop deck tonnage - people will see that it is in fact down to teamwork and the fact that new players start as IS, and they are terrible not because they are bad at games, but because this is a game which is actually tough to master.

So obviously if you are not filling your IS group with 12 in teamspeak you run the very real risk of some dude bringing his dual LRM10 Huginn to an invasion map.

Eveyone should just put the rattle back in the pram for now and see what happens when 12 co-ordinated folks get together on an IS side. Now THAT would be data id love to see.

Again if they made FW/CW Tier 3 and above and banned trials - you would get better matches.

It would also give new players something to really aim for and unlock, and to be honest getting to tier 3 really shouldnt take that long, but at least it would mean the player has probably mastered a couple of mechs and stuck some modules on them!

So if there was no tonnage variance at all and equal skill on both sides, you believe the odds are 50/50?

[Fuerchtenichts]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

So if there was no tonnage variance at all and equal skill on both sides, you believe the odds are 50/50?

Hmm, depending on the circumstances...

comp unit with IS mechs VS comp unit with CLAN mechs - IS mechs win (due to current tonnage advantage)
comp IS/CLAN unit mechs vs premade IS/CLANs mechs - comp unit wins (due to better dropdeck/tactic harmonization)
premade IS/CLAN mechs vs pug team IS/CLAN mechs - premade wins (less fun builds and no meat shield mentality)
pug IS mechs vs pug CLAN mechs - ? (to few experiences from my side to evalute this)

Overall I guess the whole scenario is too complex to be balanced for all cases.

[MischiefSC]

Fuerchtenichts, on 19 December 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

Hmm, depending on the circumstances...

comp unit with IS mechs VS comp unit with CLAN mechs - IS mechs win (due to current tonnage advantage)
comp IS/CLAN unit mechs vs premade IS/CLANs mechs - comp unit wins (due to better dropdeck/tactic harmonization)
premade IS/CLAN mechs vs pug team IS/CLAN mechs - premade wins (less fun builds and no meat shield mentality)
pug IS mechs vs pug CLAN mechs - ? (to few experiences from my side to evalute this)

Overall I guess the whole scenario is too complex to be balanced for all cases.

Only if you're trying to over-complicate it. Which I can get is a good idea when you're trying to avoid the obvious central issue -

Simple concept, really. Player performance variance zeroed out and identical tonnage, IS or Clan team?

I can help you with that as in the environment where skill variance between players is the most slim and narrow, competitive play, has already answered this one pretty clearly in MRBC, MWWC and the population migration of units from IS to Clans over the last 18 months or so. The only exception was when the IS had a run of uber-quirked mechs (Lightning God Thuds, Laservomit Stalkers, etc)

Because the bulk of units went IS when IS tech was superior but then as soon as it was nerfed back down went back Clans, causing a steady drain of unit population from IS to Clan...

specifically because overall Clan tech is better. Which is the core issue. It's not about 'balancing for all cases' because all cases draw back to 1 to 1 balance.

Edited by MischiefSC, 19 December 2016 - 04:08 AM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

Only if you're trying to over-complicate it. Which I can get is a good idea when you're trying to avoid the obvious central issue -

Simple concept, really. Player performance variance zeroed out and identical tonnage, IS or Clan team?

I can help you with that as in the environment where skill variance between players is the most slim and narrow, competitive play, has already answered this one pretty clearly in MRBC, MWWC and the population migration of units from IS to Clans over the last 18 months or so. The only exception was when the IS had a run of uber-quirked mechs (Lightning God Thuds, Laservomit Stalkers, etc)

Because the bulk of units went IS when IS tech was superior but then as soon as it was nerfed back down went back Clans, causing a steady drain of unit population from IS to Clan...

specifically because overall Clan tech is better. Which is the core issue. It's not about 'balancing for all cases' because all cases draw back to 1 to 1 balance.

Ok, let's start with the MRBC argument. You should not forget that hero mechs were disallowed in Season 8 (e.g. Black Widow) as well as "new" mechs like the Night Gyr. Maybe the typical MRBC Season 8 drop deck would have looked differently without this rule set. Nevertheless is it a good idea on comp level to simply allow all units to play the same mechs. But this won't help a typical new FP Player. He simply has an eqipment malus compared to veteran players. It takes time to optimize your hangar. So even if you would be on the same skill level you are not on the same tech. level, no matter whether you are playing IS or CLAN.

As we have been discussing the techn. IS/CLAN balance for a long time now in this forum, we have to accept that mech. balancing is and will be an on going task for pgi due to new mechs, new game modes, new maps, etc. etc......

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 19 December 2016 - 04:41 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

Only if you're trying to over-complicate it. Which I can get is a good idea when you're trying to avoid the obvious central issue -

Simple concept, really. Player performance variance zeroed out and identical tonnage, IS or Clan team?

I know you didn't address the question to me, but as I am one of the "recent switches" (2 months ago-ish) from IS to Clan, I will give my two cents.

Answer: depends on the map

Boreal---Clan, all the live long day...I have heard the phrase "it's like Omaha beach" (WWII reference) used at least twice by IS pilots as we tried in vain to close distance without dying.
Emerald: IS...I had a greater than 2.0 w/l ratio as a solo FRR pilot on this map. That was back when pre-nerfed quad uac10 KDK-3's could camp the hill between the gates before you could get a gate down. It's just a brawl map that I loved as IS. Unless we faced Evil or an upper tier team, our mixed tag warband on FRR TS was going to win.
Vitric: IS...a hot brawl map
Sulfur: even
Hellbore: Clan...they can get some range here.

Problem is all the QP maps do probably favor Clan to one degree or another. Just the range factor, which allows poke and cool strategies. Although large laser and ERlarge grasshoppers do well. Comp is on the QP maps, which explains a lot of the drop decks brought.

A few months ago I was with you on tech imbalance. The KDK-3 pre-nerf was a machine where you did an easy 1000 dmg 1st wave most times. PGI has cleaned that up a good bit...don't get me wrong...It's still a great mech, but not ridiculous like it was. The UAC nerfs and the short range missle (streak and splat) ghost heat adjustments hit the Clans harder that the IS....rightly so.... not too many IS builds could have boated 6 srm 6's anyway.

Point is...the tech disparity isn't nearly what it was even a month ago. I think things are pretty close at the moment... as there are offsetting pro's/con's to each tech. I was solo unit FRR for most of phase 3 (just getting on TS with mixed groups of pilots) and had a 1.4 w/l.. despite facing unnerfed KDK's, Evil (which always ended badly for us) and the unstoppable BNB gen rush (hated it, but credit to you guys for mastering the art). I still won more than I lost... now, some tech stuff is finally fixed, tonnage is buffed and it's worse for the IS than before. Tech balance is a smaller part of that imbalance this time around.

Last thing: There is another possible reason people went Clan (other than tech)...I went because I could get decently coordinated drops there. If your unit wanted to get a planet you also needed help from other units to get enough attacks in to flip it. For a while attack drops dried up in the FRR in NA primetime ... if you can't get a group together and are forced to PUG defend against a mid or upper tier unit, it is going to be rough. I had enough of that after a while and knew some folks that had formed a new clan unit and just took a chance on it. I am sure I am not alone in my migration reasons. Fun drops with people you like trump cbills, mc and everything else

[Volkodav]

Arend, on 18 December 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Well good Players usually use the best Mechs available, Clan Mechs are superior to IS Mechs, therefore most good Players/Units play Clan, simple as that!

Show me a good loyalist unit of div A in MRBC? CL or IS?

Edited by Volkodav, 19 December 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 19 December 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

I know you didn't address the question to me, but as I am one of the "recent switches" (2 months ago-ish) from IS to Clan, I will give my two cents.

Answer: depends on the map

Boreal---Clan, all the live long day...I have heard the phrase "it's like Omaha beach" (WWII reference) used at least twice by IS pilots as we tried in vain to close distance without dying.
Emerald: IS...I had a greater than 2.0 w/l ratio as a solo FRR pilot on this map. That was back when pre-nerfed quad uac10 KDK-3's could camp the hill between the gates before you could get a gate down. It's just a brawl map that I loved as IS. Unless we faced Evil or an upper tier team, our mixed tag warband on FRR TS was going to win.
Vitric: IS...a hot brawl map
Sulfur: even
Hellbore: Clan...they can get some range here.

Problem is all the QP maps do probably favor Clan to one degree or another. Just the range factor, which allows poke and cool strategies. Although large laser and ERlarge grasshoppers do well. Comp is on the QP maps, which explains a lot of the drop decks brought.

A few months ago I was with you on tech imbalance. The KDK-3 pre-nerf was a machine where you did an easy 1000 dmg 1st wave most times. PGI has cleaned that up a good bit...don't get me wrong...It's still a great mech, but not ridiculous like it was. The UAC nerfs and the short range missle (streak and splat) ghost heat adjustments hit the Clans harder that the IS....rightly so.... not too many IS builds could have boated 6 srm 6's anyway.

Point is...the tech disparity isn't nearly what it was even a month ago. I think things are pretty close at the moment... as there are offsetting pro's/con's to each tech. I was solo unit FRR for most of phase 3 (just getting on TS with mixed groups of pilots) and had a 1.4 w/l.. despite facing unnerfed KDK's, Evil (which always ended badly for us) and the unstoppable BNB gen rush (hated it, but credit to you guys for mastering the art). I still won more than I lost... now, some tech stuff is finally fixed, tonnage is buffed and it's worse for the IS than before. Tech balance is a smaller part of that imbalance this time around.

Last thing: There is another possible reason people went Clan (other than tech)...I went because I could get decently coordinated drops there. If your unit wanted to get a planet you also needed help from other units to get enough attacks in to flip it. For a while attack drops dried up in the FRR in NA primetime ... if you can't get a group together and are forced to PUG defend against a mid or upper tier unit, it is going to be rough. I had enough of that after a while and knew some folks that had formed a new clan unit and just took a chance on it. I am sure I am not alone in my migration reasons. Fun drops with people you like trump cbills, mc and everything else

Going to quote this from someone else who broke it down pretty well.

VitriolicViolet, on 18 December 2016 - 07:49 PM, said:

to all who say Clan tech isnt better take a IS Highlander and a Clan Highlander (732B vs IIC-C).

These two mechs are near identical. Same hitboxes. Same hardpoint number. Can equip virtually the same equipment (JJ, probe, IS has CC, Clan has TC) They even currently have nearly the same armor/structure quirks.

The only difference is Clan tech (CXLs, light weapons) and IS weapon/movement quirks (the 732B gets ballistic velocity and cooldown as well as some energy quirks and accel/decel).

Which mech performs better? I have posted this at least 5 other times and no one tries to respond. Either my idea is idiotic or it cant really be argued against. It also applies to the Orions. Take the ONI-V and ONI-IIC-C. same deal they are almost the same mech if not for Clan tech and IS quirks. so once again which is better?

Ultimately as long as there is imbalance the players will endlessly pursue the better side.

Volkodav, on 19 December 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

Show me a good loyalist unit of div A in MRBC? CL or IS?

CSJx played a good long while in CW1. Most the people currently in EMP played too in CW 1 and a bit in CW 2, CSJ loyalists.

In fact they would routinely mock IS players for being *stupid* enough to play IS tech when it was so utterly imbalanced toward Clans. I've had the pleasure of Heimdelight mock the pug team I was playing in for the whole match on the topic. Given how bad IS pugs can be and that my team refused to open the gates (we were *attacking*) and I actually had to do so myself, literally just so they could come farm the poor terrified terribads I'd ended up in that unfortunate drop with and I could get on to another match.

Admittedly those EMP guys are scrubs with no real idea how game/mech balance works so take that with a grain of salt. I mean how could they *possibly* understand IS/Tech balance as well as some of the people up this thread.

Right?

[Ollie Rifleman Brown]

Give IS the choice to take max. 2 Clan-Mechs,
and the Clan-side max. 4 IS - Mechs.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

MischiefSC, on 19 December 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Going to quote this from someone else who broke it down pretty well.

All the Highlander and Orion differences point out is that PGI is capable of building sub-par IIC's (that few use) out of terrible IS Mechs (that few use). I would take an Oxide over a Jenner iic any day. The rest of the IS Jenners not so much..

The question that is relevant today is: Does one believe that the IS currently can't build a deck @ 265 tons that legitimately can compete in FW with a Clan deck @ 240 tons?

[1 21 Giggawatts]

Quote

CSJx played a good long while in CW1. Most the people currently in EMP played too in CW 1 and a bit in CW 2, CSJ loyalists.

In fact they would routinely mock IS players for being *stupid* enough to play IS tech when it was so utterly imbalanced toward Clans. I've had the pleasure of Heimdelight mock the pug team I was playing in for the whole match on the topic. Given how bad IS pugs can be and that my team refused to open the gates (we were *attacking*) and I actually had to do so myself, literally just so they could come farm the poor terrified terribads I'd ended up in that unfortunate drop with and I could get on to another match.

Admittedly those EMP guys are scrubs with no real idea how game/mech balance works so take that with a grain of salt. I mean how could they *possibly* understand IS/Tech balance as well as some of the people up this thread.

Right?

You are now bringing in examples from what 3 or 4 years ago? It hardly applies now. Sure when clans first came out, the power imbalance was huge, but PGI has been steadily working(quirking) away on that until its at a stage where IS has strengths in certain scernario's and clan has strength in other scenarios.

And to be honest I think thats the way it should be. I think two identical factions would be boring.

Believe it or not Mischief on most Invasion maps, i believe IS has the advantage. Chokepoints can keep the range of engagement to under 300m - and IS mechs can alpha all day with that short burn time and cooler laser vomit.

What we are seeing with the introduction of quickplay maps is the abillity to really use range in some scenarios. I know we have been building our dropdecks to take advantage of this, it seems most of the IS pugs we have faced havnt, this has resulted in easy wins. Im sure they will catch on soon. Im not going to be on much for the next 2 weeks but I fully expect by the time I come back the dust will have settled and things will have evened out.

[FallingAce]

Commander A9, on 18 December 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

and we just got a ghost drop tonight.

So much for buckets.

Edited by FallingAce, 19 December 2016 - 05:38 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 19 December 2016 - 04:57 PM, said:

The question that is relevant today is: Does one believe that the IS currently can't build a deck @ 265 tons that legitimately can compete in FW with a Clan deck @ 240 tons?

Absolutely, I'd say the IS 265 deck is very well balanced with the 240 clan deck. Matches between competitive teams where both takes max tonnage are super close now. A well sequenced IS team that is behind after wave 1 and 2 can catch up in wave 3 and 4 due to tonnage advantage.

That is a great data point because tells us roughly how much stronger clan tech is, about 10% stronger. So balancing IS vs clan tech right now is going to require improving IS tech and/or mechs by about 10% in general.

Do that and you can remove the tonnage bandaid, start with the XL engines as they are the biggest single point of imbalance.

FW tonnage difference can't be the long term solution because it doesn't address the imbalances in quickplay and comp.

Edited by Sjorpha, 20 December 2016 - 04:17 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Sjorpha, on 20 December 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

Absolutely, I'd say the IS 265 deck is very well balanced with the 240 clan deck. Matches between competitive teams where both takes max tonnage are super close now. A well sequenced IS team that is behind after wave 1 and 2 can catch up in wave 3 and 4 due to tonnage advantage.

That is a great data point because tells us roughly how much stronger clan tech is, about 10% stronger. So balancing IS vs clan tech right now is going to require improving IS tech and/or mechs by about 10% in general.

Do that and you can remove the tonnage bandaid, start with the XL engines as they are the biggest single point of imbalance.

FW tonnage difference can't be the long term solution because it doesn't address the imbalances in quickplay and comp.

eceüpt it's not the clantech and PGI already admitted better tiered palyers on clanside, and more units on clanside.

The major point of the OP is that they have much better W/L stats in IS emchs than clanemchs, hwo does that still go with your clams are better statement? because if clans are better these units clanstats would have to be better than these units IS stats.

Edited by Lily from animove, 20 December 2016 - 06:23 AM.

[B0oN]

Balance as usual ... damn spheroids cant even drive their own **** ...

nothing new, since too many newbs and their twitter friends

Edited by B0oN, 20 December 2016 - 06:26 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Sjorpha, on 20 December 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

Absolutely, I'd say the IS 265 deck is very well balanced with the 240 clan deck. Matches between competitive teams where both takes max tonnage are super close now. A well sequenced IS team that is behind after wave 1 and 2 can catch up in wave 3 and 4 due to tonnage advantage.

That is a great data point because tells us roughly how much stronger clan tech is, about 10% stronger. So balancing IS vs clan tech right now is going to require improving IS tech and/or mechs by about 10% in general.

Do that and you can remove the tonnage bandaid, start with the XL engines as they are the biggest single point of imbalance.

FW tonnage difference can't be the long term solution because it doesn't address the imbalances in quickplay and comp.

I think we both agree that the question of balance needs to be addressed in the present. Rehashing who was OP in past versions of the game just doesn't help us today. Every time they add a mech or do a hotfix it's a slightly different verison of the game, so balance is dynamic and will probably never achieve exact balance. It just needs to be close enough that we can mostly live with it.

I think the question of how they balance is tough. I don't like doing it on tonnage, but I also do like the different flavor of playing the IS side. Letting IS drop Clan Mechs or even making the XL the same takes away subtle differences in how the mechs play. I might be more in favor of additional ST structure buffs. Would preserve IS firepower longer as well.

Unfortunately we probably need more data as I am seeing the IS teams doing pretty well vs Clan teams with the tonnage. Buffing tonnage might be having an undue impact on those games in favor of the IS...but more data would be needed. The tonnage buff isn't helping IS PUGs much..

Anyway, I am open to ideas on if and where to balance...just think we should have more time to digest the changes PGI recently made that nerfed some Clan go-to tech (KDK, uacs, srm/streak boating) more than IS. My initial impressions with the December patch was that PGI got things a lot closer balance wise in the past weeks in the team v team area.