57 replies to this topic

[Dogstar]

The Clans have an inherent technology advantage over the Inner Sphere but weapon disparity is crucial to the game so we need other solutions to even up the balance. Tonnage limits on drop decks are a handy quick fix but do not actually fix balance issues. Here is an idea that does not rely on fiddling with weapon, armour, or structure values.

Swap XL Engine Destruction Penalties

This is one of the biggest balance differences between Clan and Inner Sphere mechs and I think that it is the wrong way round. Inner Sphere mechs are old and tough because they have survived hundreds of years of combat and are proven vehicles that simply do not break down as much as newly built mechs, especially ones based on swapping various pods in and out.

Thus swap the XL engine side destruction penalties around. Make clan mechs die when a side torso engine is destroyed and allow Inner Sphere XL to continue to function after one side has been destroyed. Inner Sphere mechs should be tougher because they have less high tech so should be able to take more damage than clan mechs, not less. Clan XL engines still have the advantage of fewer slots so are still harder to destroy.

Failing that make both factions XL side destruction penalty the same, either all XL engines fail after one side is destroyed or they all can carry on until the other side is destroyed.

Edited by Dogstar, 18 December 2016 - 03:59 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

The Clans have an inherent technology advantage over the Inner Sphere but weapon disparity is crucial to the game so we need other solutions to even up the balance. Tonnage limits on drop decks are a handy quick fix but do not actually fix balance issues. Here is an idea that does not rely on fiddling with weapon, armour, or structure values.

Swap XL Engine Destruction Penalties

This is one of the biggest balance differences between Clan and Inner Sphere mechs and I think that it is the wrong way round. Inner Sphere mechs are old and tough because they have survived hundreds of years of combat and are proven vehicles that simply do not break down as much as newly built mechs, especially ones based on swapping various pods in and out.

Thus swap the XL engine side destruction penalties around. Make clan mechs die when a side torso engine is destroyed and allow Inner Sphere XL to continue to function after one side has been destroyed. Inner Sphere mechs should be tougher because they have less high tech so should be able to take more damage than clan mechs, not less. Clan XL engines still have the advantage of fewer slots so are still harder to destroy.

Failing that make both factions XL side destruction penalty the same, either all XL engines fail after one side is destroyed or they all can carry on until the other side is destroyed.

[Dogstar]

Nice reasoning there. Glad to see you bothered to consider the idea.

[QuantumButler]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 04:12 AM, said:

Nice reasoning there. Glad to see you bothered to consider the idea.

It's such a bad idea it doesn't deserve even a millisecond of thought, just a reaction image.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd be happy with just removing clans from the game.
Easiest way to fix the Faction Play balance issues.

On a more serious note, there HAS to be done something regarding the engines.
Not only to improve the IS vs Clan balance, but to also make the Clan Standard Engine actually a viable choice in comparison to the XL, because right now, there's absolutely no reason to use an cSTD engine (unless you're running something borderline-troll like 4xGauss Kodiak).

Making the Clan Standard a viable option (easiest way, without making IS v Clan faction balance even worse, would be nerfing the cXL engine) would also make the few (often requested) Clan Omnimechs with standard engines actually viable for inclusion into the game (Kingfisher anyone?)

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 18 December 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Well normalizing XL engines has oft been asked, ie IS mechs not to die on side torso destruction with XLs.

[charov]

Jeez at least you should have thought about giving omnis a way to change their engines. Or you run XL on your Atlas all the time? Zero effort to make this idea reasonable.

Easy way to start balancing engines:
- CXL, make one torso loss penalties even bigger;
- Introduce IS LFE (or whatever they're called, I don't remember), no penalties for one torso loss.
- ISXL, CSTD, ISSTD no changes.

You can't nerf CXL to the ground and not allow Clan Omnis to change them. No one will play Clan Omnis otherwise, just IIC. With LFE you have something between XL and STD but without any drawback (since it's already heavier).

[RestosIII]

We are not going to make every Clan Omnimech in the game currently into walking death traps. Admittedly, it would make the Kingfisher a much larger prize when it gets added, but I'd really prefer to not make Clan Battlemechs even better than Omnis than they currently are. The problem with your idea is the fact that Omnimechs, y'know, can't switch engine types. That means something like the Timber Wolf with LRM racks will be one of the easiest mechs in the game to kill, with its giant ears.

[Juodas Varnas]

RestosIII, on 18 December 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

y'know, can't switch engine types.

Let them switch engine types then

Seriously, i'd LOVE it, if omnis were able to change their armor/structure/engines.
It wouldn't do much to improve the CLANS OP mechs, like Timberwolves and Ebon Jaguars, but it would definitely improve mechs like the Suckoner, that could really use it.

And this is coming from an IS purist, who doesn't have a single Clan omni in his hangars (because they're all hideous or something, i don't know).

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 18 December 2016 - 04:29 AM.

[Zergling]

You want to see uberquirked KDK-3? Because this is how you get uberquirked mechs.

[RestosIII]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 December 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

Let them switch engine types then

Seriously, i'd LOVE it, if omnis were able to change their armor/structure/engines.
It wouldn't do much to improve the CLANS OP mechs, like Timberwolves and Ebon Jaguars, but it would definitely improve mechs like the Suckoner, that could really use it.

And this is coming from an IS purist, who doesn't have a single Clan omni in his hangars (because they're all hideous or something, i don't know).

Remember, I'm one of the sick people that runs lore builds. That's pretty obvious from me even mentioning the Timber Wolf with LRM ears. I wouldn't be able to switch to STD engines. Aka I'd suddenly plummet to "First time playing MW:O" levels of bad.

[Juodas Varnas]

RestosIII, on 18 December 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

Aka I'd suddenly plummet to "First time playing MW:O" levels of bad.

On the bright side, you'd fall down tiers and you might end up having fun!

[RestosIII]

Juodas Varnas, on 18 December 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

On the bright side, you'd fall down tiers and you might end up having fun!

I already have a terrible record for matches and it "saying" my PSR is dropping. At the rate it claims I'm dropping now, it'd be at least a good 500 matches to drop down into T3 again. I don't want that sort of torture. Please don't do this to me.

[Dogstar]

The thing is XL engines are really needed on almost every IS mech to make them viable.

If playing clan mechs that have the same disadvantage as IS mechs is 'torture' then that only proves that clan mechs are way OP or that the XL engine destruction penalty for IS mechs is way too much.

Edited by Dogstar, 18 December 2016 - 04:43 AM.

[RestosIII]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

The thing is XL engines are really needed on almost every IS mech to make them viable.

If playing clan mechs that have the same disadvantage as IS mechs is 'torture' then that only proves that clan mechs are way OP.

I view there as being a lean towards Clan tech having an advantage, and that IS XL engines should get looked at for a rework. But I absolutely despise the ST death system. Almost all of my IS mechs before I went on this lore build crusade ran STD engines, just because I hate XL that much. I've been campaigning for the Kingfisher just because I want an Omnimech that has a STD engine for zombie fun. I want the IS XL engine to be made less crap, not turning the entire Clan Omnimech line into walking dumpster fires. IS mechs that have to run XL usually have structure quirks to at least partially alleviate the problem. Clan mechs don't.

TL;DR: Buff IS XL engines, don't trash Clan Omnis, TTK is longer. Hooray, everyone wins.

[Baulven]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

The Clans have an inherent technology advantage over the Inner Sphere but weapon disparity is crucial to the game so we need other solutions to even up the balance. Tonnage limits on drop decks are a handy quick fix but do not actually fix balance issues. Here is an idea that does not rely on fiddling with weapon, armour, or structure values.

Swap XL Engine Destruction Penalties

This is one of the biggest balance differences between Clan and Inner Sphere mechs and I think that it is the wrong way round. Inner Sphere mechs are old and tough because they have survived hundreds of years of combat and are proven vehicles that simply do not break down as much as newly built mechs, especially ones based on swapping various pods in and out.

Thus swap the XL engine side destruction penalties around. Make clan mechs die when a side torso engine is destroyed and allow Inner Sphere XL to continue to function after one side has been destroyed. Inner Sphere mechs should be tougher because they have less high tech so should be able to take more damage than clan mechs, not less. Clan XL engines still have the advantage of fewer slots so are still harder to destroy.

Failing that make both factions XL side destruction penalty the same, either all XL engines fail after one side is destroyed or they all can carry on until the other side is destroyed.

Clan geometry is leaps and bounds worse than IS so XL side torso death would be far worse. The Timberwolves would go from being a strong mech to unplayable, along with 3/4 of the entire current stable and future mechs. That is why this idea is so terrible, you are asking for the humanoids to take over for being even slightly capable of not being a walking death trap.

In order to compensate for this omni mechs would need to be completely unlocked, because things like executioners have so much mandatory equipment swapping to a standard engine would not even give them enough tonnage to run guns.

1/10 terrible idea would deconstruct again.

Edited by Baulven, 18 December 2016 - 04:52 AM.

[QuantumButler]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

... or that the XL engine destruction penalty for IS mechs is way too much.

Bingo, you hit the nail right on the head

[Dogstar]

If side torso destruction makes a clan mech unplayable then that makes 90% of IS mechs 'unplayable' too.

The engine destruction penalty for IS is unreasonable and the idea of swapping the penalties being totally unreasonable is perfect proof.

As RestosIII says:TL;DR: Buff IS XL engines, don't trash Clan Omnis, TTK is longer. Hooray, everyone wins.

Edited by Dogstar, 18 December 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Livestick]

charov, on 18 December 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

Jeez at least you should have thought about giving omnis a way to change their engines. Or you run XL on your Atlas all the time? Zero effort to make this idea reasonable.

Easy way to start balancing engines:
- CXL, make one torso loss penalties even bigger;
- Introduce IS LFE (or whatever they're called, I don't remember), no penalties for one torso loss.
- ISXL, CSTD, ISSTD no changes.

You can't nerf CXL to the ground and not allow Clan Omnis to change them. No one will play Clan Omnis otherwise, just IIC. With LFE you have something between XL and STD but without any drawback (since it's already heavier).

This. This is how you fix the engine problem. Everything else is a bad idea.

[QuantumButler]

Dogstar, on 18 December 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

If side torso destruction makes a clan mech unplayable then that makes 90% of IS mechs 'unplayable' too.

The engine destruction penalty for IS is unreasonable and the idea of swapping the penalties being totally unreasonable is perfect proof.

As RestosIII says:TL;DR: Buff IS XL engines, don't trash Clan Omnis, TTK is longer. Hooray, everyone wins.

The only reason any IS XL mechs are worth playing are due to 3things, mega quirks, favorable hitboxes that reduce the risk of losing a side to the minimum, or super long range loadouts where you don't ever actually expose yourself to any incoming fire.

There's a reason taking an XL in an Atlas is considered suicide.