160 replies to this topic

[Noey Bunny]

just.. sayin, there's really no effective counterplay in the current meta, LRM's are supposed to be indirect fire support weapons, but become absolutely devastating when narc lasts for half a literal century, there's very little LRM cover in the maps, and the single AMS I can equip on most of my mechs (if that, since narc counters ECM as well) has no effect against pub stomping LRM 100 boats and what not, yet they continue to get buffed and create yet an ever larger point of frustration for new players especially, and old players alike.

EDIT: My bad, I forgot you can 'effectively' run 1000m away from the lrm boat -.- lol

Edited by Kittenkawa11, 19 December 2016 - 06:06 AM.

[Jehofi]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

[...]there's very little LRM cover in the maps[...]

An here is your mistake. There is more than enough cover on the maps (except maybe polar).

Also ECM helps.

[TercieI]

There's almost always ample cover. Or you can move parallel to the fire and dodge most of it.

Or close range and slaughter the fools.

Edited by TercieI, 19 December 2016 - 06:24 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

EDIT: My bad, I forgot you can 'effectively' run 1000m away from the lrm boat -.- lol

If you run away from the LRM boat then you are running the wrong direction.

[Noey Bunny]

Jehofi, on 19 December 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

An here is your mistake. There is more than enough cover on the maps (except maybe polar).

Also ECM helps.

ECM helps... if you're not narc'd, and you forgot grim plexus (a couple of small buildings at best), or notoriously caustic Valley and Alpine Peaks. at least half the map rotation has little to no cover aside from small hills, and with the increased map size and the meta shifting away from brawling and skirmishing engagements hasn't made LRM's any more feasable to deal with, even while I religiously run radar derp on every single mech.

I'd love to see anyone actually rush the 600-800m to a LRM boat and get mowed down in no man's land, lol. seriously, if it was so easy, then a majority of the fights I see involving LRM's wouldn't be so one sided on those open maps.

Edited by Kittenkawa11, 19 December 2016 - 06:27 AM.

[TercieI]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

ECM helps... if you're not narc'd, and you forgot grim plexus (a couple of small buildings at best), or notoriously caustic Valley and Alpine Peaks. at least half the map rotation has little to no cover aside from small hills, and with the increased map size and the meta shifting away from brawling and skirmishing engagements hasn't made LRM's any more feasable to deal with, even while I religiously run radar derp on every single mech.

I'd love to see anyone actually rush the 600-800m to a LRM boat and get mowed down in no man's land, lol. seriously, if it was so easy, then a majority of the fights I see involving LRM's wouldn't be so one sided on those open maps.

At 600-800M on grim, you can break LOS (lots of slopes even where there isn't hard cover) and run parallel to the fire. Do that and twist and you can reduce the effect dramatically.

NARC does make LRMs not a complete joke on more open maps, but considering that takes two mechs to scatter damage on one, it seems reasonable. And even if you can't close, your team can. Are many PUG teams too stupid to close on LRMs and so get rekt by playing into their hands? Sadly yes. But that's a tactical issue not a LRMs OP issue.

[Savage Wolf]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

I'd love to see anyone actually rush the 600-800m to a LRM boat and get mowed down in no man's land, lol. seriously, if it was so easy, then a majority of the fights I see involving LRM's wouldn't be so one sided on those open maps.

If you at that distance then you can go have a cup of tea and still have time to find cover before the lrms actually arrive. Hell, just break LOS and the lrms will miss.
If you are at 300-400 m range, just get under 180, and kick their ***.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:02 AM, said:

just.. sayin, there's really no effective counterplay in the current meta, LRM's

just askinG... are you sayinG the current meta is LRM?

[Noey Bunny]

TercieI, on 19 December 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

At 600-800M on grim, you can break LOS (lots of slopes even where there isn't hard cover) and run parallel to the fire. Do that and twist and you can reduce the effect dramatically.

NARC does make LRMs not a complete joke on more open maps, but considering that takes two mechs to scatter damage on one, it seems reasonable. And even if you can't close, your team can. Are many PUG teams too stupid to close on LRMs and so get rekt by playing into their hands? Sadly yes. But that's a tactical issue not a LRMs OP issue.

Sure, most Pugs are pants on head levels of gameplay, and I'm speaking from what I've seen from group queue and solo quickplay as a PSR 3 player (I've been PSR3 for like a year now, at best I just lose a lot and break even) I'm not saying LRM's in general are OP, it's the extreme ability for anyone to run a narc for minimal weight and absolutely merc a team with it as long as there's some LRM's, I understand in faction play it's not as powerful, if even underpowered, but the point stands that they're in a bad place right now, if they can be abused so easily in quick play (emphasis on easily, sit with a taco and target lock lurm spam all day long, I've tried it, it's silly easy to break 700-800 damage a game). the push to make them more viable in certain circumstances has made them completely outright silly levels of powerful in others, and it really shouldn't require a highly intellectual PUG team to counter what is otherwise mindless lock on and fire gameplay.

[nehebkau]

And that is what happens when you build with the "I don't need AMS" mentality.

If everyone put on AMS + 1/2 ton of ammo = no more LRMs.

[Noey Bunny]

nehebkau, on 19 December 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

And that is what happens when you build with the "I don't need AMS" mentality.

If everyone put on AMS + 1/2 ton of ammo = no more LRMs.

maybe, I don't see many AMS, I feel like one of the only people that runs it ^^ but, even still, ams doesn't really cover well, and it would still require people to stack up effeciently and play as a team to get AMS coverage.

[Savage Wolf]

I'm also a PSR-3 player and yeah, I also pop up in an LRM boat from time to time. But that has also taught me how to deal with enemy LRM boats. So while a lot of pugs are scared to deal with them and just stand there and take the beating, I take the fight to them and take advantage of their minimum range and need for LOS.
Got many kills this way, especially as a brawler.
However, yeah, sometime there are too many of them for one guy to handle and I get horrible destroyed. And that's the problem. Only I go for them. If just a few of us did, then we could easily take them. But pugs are timid.

[Jehofi]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

ECM helps... if you're not narc'd

ECM is countered only if you are the mech having the ECM, ECM still helps if you are getting covered by another player.

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

and you forgot grim plexus (a couple of small buildings at best), or notoriously caustic Valley and Alpine Peaks.

Gim plexus has enough high vertical structures for cover. Alpine and Caustic have less, however on caustic it is hard for an LRM boat to have an good position to fire and on Alpine you can just dive behind a mountain (which takes a little longer).

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

at least half the map rotation has little to no cover aside from small hills, and with the increased map size and the meta shifting away from brawling and skirmishing engagements hasn't made LRM's any more feasable to deal with, even while I religiously run radar derp on every single mech.

No hard cover:
Polar Highlands

Few hard cover:
Alpine Peaks
Caustic Valley

Plenty of hard cover:
Canyon Network
Crimson Strait
Forest Colony
Frozen City
Grim Plexus
HPG Manifold
River City
Terra Therma
The Mining Collective
Tourmaline Desert
Viridian Bog

And im am very glad that LRM finally get into the range of usable.

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

I'd love to see anyone actually rush the 600-800m to a LRM boat and get mowed down in no man's land, lol. seriously, if it was so easy, then a majority of the fights I see involving LRM's wouldn't be so one sided on those open maps.

If you are narced you dont rush the boat, you seek cover. If you are spotted you kill the spotter. If the Spotter is the boat himself, you may rush him. But be advised im a LRM player and i often count on people trying to rush so that my team can finish them.

[Acehilator]

nehebkau, on 19 December 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

And that is what happens when you build with the "I don't need AMS" mentality.

If everyone put on AMS + 1/2 ton of ammo = no more LRMs.

Yep, it is pretty hilarious. That you even see people in T1/T2 without AMS reflects very poorly on those players. But hey, that one additional heatsink is going to make all the difference.

[Jehofi]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Sure, most Pugs are pants on head levels of gameplay, and I'm speaking from what I've seen from group queue and solo quickplay as a PSR 3 player (I've been PSR3 for like a year now, at best I just lose a lot and break even) I'm not saying LRM's in general are OP, it's the extreme ability for anyone to run a narc for minimal weight and absolutely merc a team with it as long as there's some LRM's,

That is already a 2 player combo. A Narc alone does nothing you also need competent Lurmers. And yes there is a huuuuuuuge gap between the effectiveness of a competent lurmer and an incompetent.

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

I understand in faction play it's not as powerful, if even underpowered, but the point stands that they're in a bad place right now, if they can be abused so easily in quick play (emphasis on easily, sit with a taco and target lock lurm spam all day long, I've tried it, it's silly easy to break 700-800 damage a game).

And, sorry to say that but, that is the playstyle of an incompetent lurmer. Competent Lurmers move with the group into good firing positions (which often is not easy), get their own locks of have to anticipate where people will fight so that they actually can support and hot have a huge Terrainobject n the way.

Sitting back and hoping for locks lowers win chances in PUG games.

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

the push to make them more viable in certain circumstances has made them completely outright silly levels of powerful in others, and it really shouldn't require a highly intellectual PUG team to counter what is otherwise mindless lock on and fire gameplay.

They are far from mindless, to actually hit with your LRMS you have to know the terrain an position yourself accordingly (which usually bring some exposure to enemy fire). They are not as dub a weapon as "Hit scan lazors" where all the intelligence you need is to register the enemy in LOS (slight exaggeration intended).

Acehilator, on 19 December 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Yep, it is pretty hilarious. That you even see people in T1/T2 without AMS reflects very poorly on those players. But hey, that one additional heatsink is going to make all the difference.

Because they actually are still not necessary. People just start to use them when an event starts an LRM raining Season (like get XXXX DMG). And ofc there is no AMS in all the metabuilds

Edited by Jehofi, 19 December 2016 - 07:03 AM.

[Noey Bunny]

Jehofi, on 19 December 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

If you are narced you dont rush the boat, you seek cover. If you are spotted you kill the spotter. If the Spotter is the boat himself, you may rush him. But be advised im a LRM player and i often count on people trying to rush so that my team can finish them.

It's a neat theory to say that there's so much cover, but it has little to do with map votes (obviously LRM boats don't want a map with lots of hard cover, they unfortunately don't get their map vote invalidated because they use LRM's) and subjective positioning on other maps makes it somewhat okay in some situations. I'm again, not implying that LRM's are Overpowered in every possible way, I'm saying that, in combination with narc, and the majority of the map rotation that I see currently (including grim plexus, because it's nice to think that you could make it to cover, but those low buildings don't block LRM's, I've tried many times), if it's poor map design, or there's just too much long range gameplay going currently and not enough push to apply pressure on LRM boats, or not enough AMS, I'm not going to say that I know everything, or that I Know exactly what metric needs to be controlled to bring the extremes back into the bell curve and still maintain usability of LRM's, but I will say that there are glaring issues.

[Mcgral18]

nehebkau, on 19 December 2016 - 06:42 AM, said:

And that is what happens when you build with the "I don't need AMS" mentality.

If everyone put on AMS + 1/2 ton of ammo = no more LRMs.

More specifically, no more NARC


I could not care less about LRMs, they're worthless and a wasted slot on the team
Unless it's Polar with NARC, they will be less effective than someone with real weapons.


I don't take AMS, and run that sub 1% chance of finding that combination, and I'm alright with that.

[TercieI]

Acehilator, on 19 December 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Yep, it is pretty hilarious. That you even see people in T1/T2 without AMS reflects very poorly on those players. But hey, that one additional heatsink is going to make all the difference.

Lolno. AMS is *literally* waste tonnage. No top tier player equips it because it does a poor job of countering a weapon system that isn't a meaningful threat.

[TercieI]

Kittenkawa11, on 19 December 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Sure, most Pugs are pants on head levels of gameplay, and I'm speaking from what I've seen from group queue and solo quickplay as a PSR 3 player (I've been PSR3 for like a year now, at best I just lose a lot and break even) I'm not saying LRM's in general are OP, it's the extreme ability for anyone to run a narc for minimal weight and absolutely merc a team with it as long as there's some LRM's, I understand in faction play it's not as powerful, if even underpowered, but the point stands that they're in a bad place right now, if they can be abused so easily in quick play (emphasis on easily, sit with a taco and target lock lurm spam all day long, I've tried it, it's silly easy to break 700-800 damage a game). the push to make them more viable in certain circumstances has made them completely outright silly levels of powerful in others, and it really shouldn't require a highly intellectual PUG team to counter what is otherwise mindless lock on and fire gameplay.

It really can't. LRM damage is bad damage and you're going to commit two mechs to that? You're going to lose to competent direct fire players most of the time. NARC makes it just annoying enough that the NARC mech will get prioritized and killed quickly. And NARC isn't "minimal tonnage." 4-5 tons on a light mech is a huge chunk of its available tonnage and it's very risky to use. So, no, sorry, it's still pretty weak. If you're seen first on Polar and NARCed, you may have a bad day, but other than that, it's still a weapon system that requires two dedicated mechs and is countered by large rocks.

[jjm1]

narcs are stupidly game breaking in polar QP. Especially quirked narcs. The only way to avoid the rain if there isn't a friendly ECM around is to be over 1000 meters away from all the lurmers.

The other option is for your team push early to save your ***. Good luck making that happen.