297 replies to this topic

[Jack Spade Ward]

Only noobs use LRMs, get that to your heads!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lobsters, on 27 December 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

It's a mid range fit, it works fine, for me anyway.

AC2s are not suited to mid range, too much face time at a range where things poke with massive alphas (40-70 damage per alpha). It may work for you, but that doesn't mean there isn't better options.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 01:04 PM.

[The Lobsters]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

AC2s are not suited to mid range, too much face time at a range where things poke with massive alphas (40-70 damage per alpha). It may work for you, but that doesn't mean there isn't better options.

It's emphasis is on fire support and suppression, which is more the Mauler's mission. Massive alpha poking is easier typed than done on the battlefield

So, as an alternative to the 4 x lrm rearboar 1R, how would you fit the 1R to leverage the ballistic hardpoints and the lrm bonus and not be crap?


Ed taking another mech isn't an answer

Edited by The Lobsters, 27 December 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The Lobsters, on 27 December 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

It's emphasis is on fire support and suppression, which is more the Mauler's mission. Massive alpha poking is easier typed than done on the battlefield

That's why the Mauler is better suited to longer range support, not mid range. This is the reason the MX90 is considered the best one of the bunch.

The Lobsters, on 27 December 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

So, as an alternative to the 4 x lrm rearboar 1R, how would you fit the 1R to leverage the ballistic hardpoints and the lrm bonus and not be crap?

Ed taking another mech isn't an answer

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa67b0c87296f03

The only real advantage of using the 1R over the MX90 is the heat gen quirk for the LRM15s. Even your original build would be better off dropping the LRM5s and switching over to the MX90 with more ammo since the heat profile of the AC2s are more than the LRMs. This would probably be better if you are insistent on AC2s: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70796783bb1109b

Not quite a fan of the low ammo counts, but considering how little ammo the original variant had both should still be better.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[The Lobsters]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

That's why the Mauler is better suited to longer range support, not mid range. This is the reason the MX90 is considered the best one of the bunch.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...fa67b0c87296f03

The only real advantage of using the 1R over the MX90 is the heat gen quirk for the LRM15s. Even your original build would be better off dropping the LRM5s and switching over to the MX90 with more ammo since the heat profile of the AC2s are more than the LRMs. This would probably be better if you are insistent on AC2s: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...70796783bb1109b

Not quite a fan of the low ammo counts, but considering how little ammo the original variant had both should still be better.

Good points. I think we do lrm's, and Maulers a bit differently though. Also, the lrm5's are there to take the lrm15's off the high torso mounts and gets rid of the rabbit ears. For that reason alone I wouldn't put lrm's on any other Mauler.


.

Edited by The Lobsters, 27 December 2016 - 01:39 PM.

[Dee Eight]

While the MAL-1R has an LRM15 quirk... its not actually a good LRM15 assault mech. There's an awesome way better at firing LRM15s than the Mauler.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dee Eight, on 27 December 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

While the MAL-1R has an LRM15 quirk... its not actually a good LRM15 assault mech. There's an awesome way better at firing LRM15s than the Mauler.

While I agree, the point he is trying to make is that you shouldn't boat LRMs on assault and instead should be running mix builds. Honestly I see more benefit in boating like on the AWS-8R than trying to mix builds like on an 8T.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

The Lobsters, on 27 December 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

If the critisim is lrm assault standing at the rear doing little to swing the game, you can level that at a lot of ppfld assaults too. It's playstyle (or lack of) that is the problem here, not the weapons.

You can say that there shouldn't be a thing called an assault mech lrm boat. There are assault mechs that do lrms well, but the lurms should really be used as part of a balance build, coz only assaults have the tonnage to do decent lrm's and have another weapon system.

This is an assault lrm BOAT

This is an assault with lrms

The first one stands at the back with it silly amounts of ammo and fights vicariously.

The second one finds the push, hoses the enemy and dunks them with a lrm salvo when they think they've gotten behind cover.

I dont think either of those are good to be honest... first that "LRM boat" doesnt even have TAG but is wasting 4 tons on Artemis, even worse in that Artemis requires LoS to activate. So cant self tag (REQUIRED), has no BAP to prevent an ECM Light from shutting them down (strongly recommended but not a requirement), Artemis completely wasted for the style of play described, as well as being way too slow to reliably be able to re-position for better firing angles. Failure from mechlab before the match even starts & what people complain about LRMs being so $hitty and rightly so when this is a fairly decent representation of what people bring and think is good when they bring it when in reality it is a failure from every mechanical consideration.
This is what it should look like http://mwo.smurfy-ne...34d0bd52af925e4

while your second example is a fairly bad example as well... requires way to facetime for the AC2s to warrant their DPS ability, again no TAG/no BAP, wasted CASE for a single ton of LRM ammo that is getting used first in 4.5 shots before being empty, different size launchers cause non-sequential firing using either Volley or Barrage, not enough LRM ammo to warrant the amount of tubes taken, not enough AC2 ammo for a mech that is devoting 30% of its weight to just those guns, (personal preference... i find it annoying to have armlock off to target LRMs but be using just projectiles from Torso as other weapons.) If you want a tankier Assault carrying LRMs, this highlander is much more fitting... can throw a decent amount of Fire Support while closing the distance to exploit the holes in armor using Brawling weapons with a single JJ for fast turning capacity.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f100ebff76e2c5f

Fun Fact... this well rounded build was my favorite of the Zeus to play, it almost seems like a Mech from Battletech. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f8c6e11c5fa1521

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 27 December 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 02:06 PM, said:

This is what it should look like http://mwo.smurfy-ne...34d0bd52af925e4

That ERPPC is a waste and no artemis makes that a sad LRM boat. If you are going to bother with TAG you might as well mount Artemis to make the best of LOS locks (which you should be trying to get in the first place) and get the benefit of 33% spread reduction. BAP isn't an absolute necessity even with the prevalence of Cheetahs as long as you are positioning yourself well enough.

The other 2 builds are more of a joke than his honestly. One mounts only a single launcher whose tonnage is much better suited to continuing to specialize in direct fire weaponry and the other has several 270m range weapons on a mech that just barely breaks 55kph with speed tweak.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[Snazzy Dragon]

There's no reason to sit and argue over what a good LRM mech looks like when LRMs are a trash weapon system anyways.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

That ERPPC is a waste and no artemis makes that a sad LRM boat. If you are going to bother with TAG you might as well mount Artemis to make the best of LOS locks (which you should be trying to get in the first place) and get the benefit of 33% spread reduction. BAP isn't an absolute necessity even with the prevalence of Cheetahs as long as you are positioning yourself well enough.

The other 2 builds are more of a joke than his honestly. One mounts only a single launcher whose tonnage is much better suited to continuing to specialize in direct fire weaponry and the other has several 270m range weapons on a mech that just barely breaks 55kph with speed tweak.

Volley firing LRM15s does enough on its own, sure Artemis is nice but its a huge investment for something that doesnt get used all the time. TAG is only a ton and cuts through ECM unlike Artemis while doing a lesser degree of the same thing. the ERPPC gives Long-Close range direct fire and again even better SHUTS DOWN ECM!!!!! My god people... bring LRMs, learn to use them, and always have ways of cutting through ECM or DO. NOT. BRING. LRMS. If in a LRM boat... dont cry for locks, its just sad and pathetic. Get your own locks... but always make people aware that if they get you locks they can steal your kills, works out for the whole team that way cause they like kills too. In this game stealing kills seems to make people way happier than ever earning them themselves, so give them the incentive to be helpful.

the Highlander is a Brawling mech... hell, i can use LRMs in a brawl under the garage of Crimson or the basement of HPG since i know the firing envelope. Mainly its to cause damage and/or pin mechs in Cover while closing the distance to brawl, a frontline mech carrying LRMs that can push a point. That mech will cause more for the team to win than an irrelevant Pokebear hiding in the back ever will, but then most who play this game dont seem to understand the game we are actually playing so not a surprising reaction.

the Zeus was just a fun and surprising effective build to play, especially as your reaction shows that this game is more about boating for success than building all around effectiveness. Hence why i was sharing it an anomaly not the norm.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 27 December 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[ztac]

Is this a thread from last year?
or the year before that .. or before that?
Seems to be constant in this game , the way lrm work and the buffs/nerfs they have had over the years!

[Dee Eight]

This is how I'd build a MAL-1R for a mixed range capability...

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3eeb17861b67701

Its one of the FEW mechs with an actual greater than 10% energy range quirk now (there's a black knight variant with it at 15% also), and that should be taken advantage of, especially since its also quirked for the ER Large laser. LRM15s should be used as a "support" role, not the primary. Since large LRM launchers do draw in mechs trying to brawl, a pair of SRM6s and quad MGs discourage that.

Another way to go is this....

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7dc7b75ab5fc1b1

Since you might as well fire AC2s at the same time as the ERLL, and the LRM5s give a decent indirect ability for when the enemy ducks behind cover. I see others talking about ECM and TAG and Artemis and learning to use LRMs... here's a another suggestion along those lines...learn that they can also work very well without a lock at all. They will go to wherever the HUD crosshairs are, as long as its within their range envelope. You can even take advantage of the spread, to aim right at the edge of a hill for example, and get the guy hiding on the other side as they rain down over it addressed "to whom it may concern".

Edited by Dee Eight, 27 December 2016 - 03:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

TAG is only a ton and cuts through ECM unlike Artemis while doing a lesser degree of the same thing.

Artemis isn't for cutting ECM, it is for making the damage more concentrated since it reduces missile spread by 33% which is huge. Most of your shots should not be indirect as you should be trying to actively get targets so Artemis isn't a waste (because you will have LOS to use TAG anyway).

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

the ERPPC gives Long-Close range direct fire and again even better SHUTS DOWN ECM!!!!!

If you are using PPCs to shut down ECM then you need to rethink your build because they aren't efficient for that, if you want a short range weapon the LPL is much better suited to that. The ERPPC just lulls people into bad positioning with LRMs because of its massive range. There is a reason the AWS-8R uses no PPCs and just runs TAG and 4 ALRM15s and is considered the best Assault LRM boat.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

the Highlander is a Brawling mech... hell, i can use LRMs in a brawl under the garage of Crimson or the basement of HPG since i know the firing envelope.

The Highlander isn't a brawling mech, it doesn't have the speed, firepower, or structure (outside of the 732B which is better suited to mid range) to pull it off like the Atlas, Cyclops, and Mauler.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

the Zeus was just a fun and surprising effective build to play, especially as your reaction shows that this game is more about boating for success than building all around effectiveness. Hence why i was sharing it an anomaly not the norm.

Fun maybe, effective is highly debatable though as it gains nothing for having that LRM20 over mounting LPLs in place of 1-2 medium lasers.

Dee Eight, on 27 December 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3eeb17861b67701[/smurfy]

That is just gross.

[Dee Eight]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

That is just gross.

Perhaps... but its fun when you sucker the enemy in nevertheless. Same reason I prefer my hybrid ARC-5W... lights see a rain of LRMs and charge in to discover there's an SRM20 volley waiting for their arrival.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

Artemis isn't for cutting ECM, it is for making the damage more concentrated since it reduces missile spread by 33% which is huge. Most of your shots should not be indirect as you should be trying to actively get targets so Artemis isn't a waste (because you will have LOS to use TAG anyway).

TAG reduces by 25%... AND CUTS THROUGH ECM! As i said that the MAL-1R barely even should be considered in the top 3, the rest are just worse and id accept anyone who said the KGC-0000 is better. AWS-8R & BLS-1S both have high mounted energy slots which is way better to use then an Arm mounted TAG... but fundamentally if you are saying that spending 3 more tons for +12% and no ability to cut through ECM, then you clearly have no ability to do what i do. Played 2 games in my AWS-8R today... got 9 kills and +2500 damage between those 2 games, carried both teams with easy while shooting 2340 missles (13 tons) dry. Artemis & BAP just interferes with ammo & speed and basically everything... you cant run 4 LRM15+A and enough ammo to sustain till the end of the QP match. i just rechecked using Artemis and BAP individually and together when i restarted playing that mech after the new Skill Tree news destroyed my normal mode of Mastering then selling mechs to Master them all. I would include BAP long before ever even contemplating Artemis, but even BAP was hardly ever (and by hardly i mean once for 10 seconds in nearly 10 matches) useful for keeping a single ECM Light from locking me out except in games that were already long lost. So getting your own locks using TAG and ATD module is super easy but doesnt require losts of facetime to accomplish... without TAG you are just the guy crying for locks on comms or chat.

Quote

If you are using PPCs to shut down ECM then you need to rethink your build because they aren't efficient for that, if you want a short range weapon the LPL is much better suited to that. The ERPPC just lulls people into bad positioning with LRMs because of its massive range. There is a reason the AWS-8R uses no PPCs and just runs TAG and 4 ALRM15s and is considered the best Assault LRM boat.

its totally not the best to run 4 LRM15+A but i already mentioned that... but your point about ERPPC is equally invalid, since if a single ERPPC is going to make you believe that you are suddenly super sniper then you are beyond all help. that is irredeemable, so making a strawman argument then knocking it down demonstrates a complete lack of strong point on your part.

Quote

The Highlander isn't a brawling mech, it doesn't have the speed, firepower, or structure (outside of the 732B which is better suited to mid range) to pull it off like the Atlas, Cyclops, and Mauler.

meh... Maulers are just less impressive at everything then other mechs. Atlas & Cyclops are both great brawlers of course... i was showing what a mech that he was trying to demonstrate should actually resemble. an assault mech that carrys a decent amount of LRMs but wouldnt be considered a full LRM boat.

Quote

Fun maybe, effective is highly debatable though as it gains nothing for having that LRM20 over mounting LPLs in place of 1-2 medium lasers.

again... it was surprisingly effective, well rounded builds that cover many ranges using different weapon systems (you know, like real mechs do) generally suck. try it out before you bash it... handles heat well, does good damage and can stay in combat most of the match with varying degrees of impact.

Edited by I_AM_ZUUL, 27 December 2016 - 08:48 PM.

[Ratpoison]

I really feel like the popular 4th LRM15A suffers from significant diminishing returns, from heat and from opportunity loss. My Assault LRM setup of choice is 3 LRM15A + NARC on the AWS-8R; still more than enough LRM damage to work with(as much as 4.2 unquirked, unmoduled LRM15A), buys you the tonnage for an actually decent backup weapon so you aren't useless when you can't LRM, and grants the nice bonus of letting you mark targets so you can shoot them continuously without LOS. Comparing the two setups, I get much more opportunities to deal damage, so I end up dealing much more with the latter setup. Being completely useless when the enemy is in heavy cover is such a cripplingly huge disadvantage, and it ends up being why so many blame the LRM boats for losing. A mech that isn't shooting is as helpful as a dead mech, so get up there with your NARC, TAG, and lasers, and GET YOUR OWN LOCKS!

Edited by Ratpoison, 27 December 2016 - 09:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

but fundamentally if you are saying that spending 3 more tons for +12% and no ability to cut through ECM

Woah, it doesn't add 12%, it adds 33% on top of the bonus from TAG, that's important information (at least last I knew).

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

Played 2 games in my AWS-8R today... got 9 kills and +2500 damage between those 2 games, carried both teams with easy while shooting 2340 missles (13 tons) dry.

Cool story, but how much damage you do and how much ammo you run through isn't the moral of the story. The point is you could be as effective without having so much waste damage and going through as much ammo as you did. There is a difference between raw damage, and effective damage.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

demonstrates a complete lack of strong point on your part.

So is you ignoring my other point about there being better weapons for the job you pick it for, outside of cancelling ECM (which is what your TAG is for). Don't get me wrong, redundancy is nice sometimes, but this is just one of those things where learning to protect your TAG arm comes into play. Point is, the iERPPC is not a good weapon unless you have significant quirks for it or plan on using it at extreme range.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

meh... Maulers are just less impressive at everything then other mechs.

Now this is definitely you not knowing much considering the MX90 is still the best IS assault in the game right next to the BLR-2C.

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

again... it was surprisingly effective, well rounded builds that cover many ranges using different weapon systems

Bolded the important part, both of us agree that mid-long is where LRMs shine, and AC10s/MLs tend to be best suited to mid range (LPL/ML/AC10/LL territory). Your build isn't well rounded, it focuses on mid range. Given that, it would be better suited to using LPLs, MLs, and the AC10 over using a single LRM20 simply because of the damage inefficiency and complexity you are adding to managing the build. I'm sure you can tell me that I just need to "git gud" if I can't manage it, but the simple fact is that there is a reason comp builds tend to try and be simplistic with weapons and it all boils down to how their our limitations on what we can feasibly compensate for and that is the reason mixed builds that have no synergy tend to work worse than builds that do have that synergy.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 27 December 2016 - 09:40 PM.

[Dee Eight]

If you're going to focus on LPL, ML and AC10...a La Malinche Banshee or a Battlemaster 1G (which has energy range, energy heat reduction, med laser range, med laser heat reduction, ballistic range and ballistic cooldown) is better than any mauler variant.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dee Eight, on 27 December 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

If you're going to focus on LPL, ML and AC10...a La Malinche Banshee or a Battlemaster 1G (which has energy range, energy heat reduction, med laser range, med laser heat reduction, ballistic range and ballistic cooldown) is better than any mauler variant.

That's besides the point.