297 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 01:28 AM, said:

considering you guys got rollstomped and the game was over almost immediately... i checked out, hard enough to get PUGs to play smart but when a group is playing badly they are impossible. FYI... splitting the team down both channels from Beta gate (and use Alpha gate to start with) that results in the whole first wave getting wiped 12-3 is a loss, everything past that point is just getting farmed.

Yeah you know more than the guys from MJ12... That's quite funny.

[MacClearly]

Escef, on 27 December 2016 - 12:24 AM, said:

Ok... ?

My point is that you take a mech with very little armour and weapons and wipe out most lurmers because they are just sitting behind the line mashing buttons.

[The Lobsters]

Cant do a longer post atm, but fyi, that first fit is an example of commonly seen bad lrm assaults, ie no speed, no decent secondary weapon, no tag etc.

As for the second, that's a diferent paradigm. It doesn't have much ammo because, and this is the point I was making, it's not an lrm mech. It's a mech with lrm's. Main guns are ac2's, the lrms are secondary and are there to add burst dps when needed at crucial points in the game. The ammo count is only a problem if you are in the habit of wasting ammo. Fitting ac5/10's makes it a different mech with a different engagement profile. And yes, I have run those too. On the Mauler, I refer ac2's now, and may the metagods strike me down!

No such thing as an Lrm assault boat, just assaults with lrms. It's easy to look at lrm quirks and want to fully leverage them with max launchers. Another way of looking at it is that the quirks mean you can fit less launchers for the same effect as more on another mech. Even the AWS is better with less launchers and more LL/LPL's, unless you're going full lurmtard. And no-one should ever go full..............



What if I told you I run my BW with ac2's insted of ac5's................................................

[Escef]

MacClearly, on 27 December 2016 - 11:47 PM, said:

My point is that you take a mech with very little armour and weapons and wipe out most lurmers because they are just sitting behind the line mashing buttons.

Yeah, you can. Because "most" people in this game aren't nearly as good as they think they are. Hell, a couple weeks back I got so frustrated with the gutless wonders on my team in a solo queue domination match on Grim Plexus that I just said screw it and stormed on my own out of a relatively safe spot to confront part of the enemy team. In doing so, I center cored a Warhawk from the front and ripped the left side off of a Kodiak before the enemy team realized that if they didn't do something about me that I was going to kill half of them. And so they got together and gang beat my 2xMPL/SRM16/ECM Griffin... I should not have been able to do that. But I did, because "most" people in this game have poor awareness and fail to posess enough tactical acumen to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Edited by Escef, 28 December 2016 - 02:06 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 December 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

That's besides the point.

WHY/HOW is it besides the point ? Both the mechs I mentioned ALSO have a single missile hardpoint...thus they can be assault mechs which also have LRMs as a support weapon, to mix up the firing options beyond just mid-range direct fire. This thread ISN'T strictly about maulers.

Edited by Dee Eight, 28 December 2016 - 07:20 AM.

[Lyoto Machida]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 27 December 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

TAG reduces by 25%... AND CUTS THROUGH ECM! As i said that the MAL-1R barely even should be considered in the top 3, the rest are just worse and id accept anyone who said the KGC-0000 is better. AWS-8R & BLS-1S both have high mounted energy slots which is way better to use then an Arm mounted TAG... but fundamentally if you are saying that spending 3 more tons for +12% and no ability to cut through ECM, then you clearly have no ability to do what i do. Played 2 games in my AWS-8R today... got 9 kills and +2500 damage between those 2 games, carried both teams with easy while shooting 2340 missles (13 tons) dry. Artemis & BAP just interferes with ammo & speed and basically everything... you cant run 4 LRM15+A and enough ammo to sustain till the end of the QP match. i just rechecked using Artemis and BAP individually and together when i restarted playing that mech after the new Skill Tree news destroyed my normal mode of Mastering then selling mechs to Master them all. I would include BAP long before ever even contemplating Artemis, but even BAP was hardly ever (and by hardly i mean once for 10 seconds in nearly 10 matches) useful for keeping a single ECM Light from locking me out except in games that were already long lost. So getting your own locks using TAG and ATD module is super easy but doesnt require losts of facetime to accomplish... without TAG you are just the guy crying for locks on comms or chat.



its totally not the best to run 4 LRM15+A but i already mentioned that... but your point about ERPPC is equally invalid, since if a single ERPPC is going to make you believe that you are suddenly super sniper then you are beyond all help. that is irredeemable, so making a strawman argument then knocking it down demonstrates a complete lack of strong point on your part.



meh... Maulers are just less impressive at everything then other mechs. Atlas & Cyclops are both great brawlers of course... i was showing what a mech that he was trying to demonstrate should actually resemble. an assault mech that carrys a decent amount of LRMs but wouldnt be considered a full LRM boat.



again... it was surprisingly effective, well rounded builds that cover many ranges using different weapon systems (you know, like real mechs do) generally suck. try it out before you bash it... handles heat well, does good damage and can stay in combat most of the match with varying degrees of impact.

I wouldn't say a high or head mounted TAG is better for LRM'ing than an arm mounted one in every instance. Head/torso mounted TAG means you lose some ability to move laterally in comparison to your target while maintaining TAG lock.

On the 8R, it's a trade off between carrying two larger arm mounted weapons or the ability to TAG at wider angles...same on the 4J in terms of maintaining TAG at those lateral angles (and probably more important on the HBK due to its ability to better reposition than the AWE).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dee Eight, on 28 December 2016 - 07:18 AM, said:

WHY/HOW is it besides the point ?.

Because that wasn't the context of the argument, the context was whether that build was the most effective for that specific mech not assaults in general.

Lyoto Machida, on 28 December 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I wouldn't say a high or head mounted TAG is better for LRM'ing than an arm mounted one in every instance. Head/torso mounted TAG means you lose some ability to move laterally in comparison to your target while maintaining TAG lock.

On the 8R, it's a trade off between carrying two larger arm mounted weapons or the ability to TAG at wider angles...same on the 4J in terms of maintaining TAG at those lateral angles (and probably more important on the HBK due to its ability to better reposition than the AWE).

Head TAG is better because it minimizes exposure, that's why you never saw Jman with arm TAG instead.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 December 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Because that wasn't the context of the argument, the context was whether that build was the most effective for that specific mech not assaults in general.


Head TAG is better because it minimizes exposure, that's why you never saw Jman with arm TAG instead.

yeah, a very situational advantage (arm) vs an every match advantage (head). Though palystyle may affect it also, with someone who is used to "LRM-Brawling" maybe making the arm TAG more useful, but more often, I think avoiding LoS/Attention is the way to role... and for that, head TAG is pretty hard to beat.

[Tristan Winter]

El Bandito, on 27 December 2016 - 03:23 AM, said:

It's the AWS-8R, what do you expect? I would not even touch IS LRMs at present, if the mech does not have quirks for it. And this is coming from a dedicated lurmer. Clanners already power creeped things so much, that IS LRMs are pretty bad without quirks or absurdly large number of launchers for LRM5 spam.

I don't understand what you're saying here. Did you completely misunderstand the message in my post?

My point is that LRMs are good in many situations, almost regardless of player skill (unless you're the top 1%) and people are pretending they're not.

[Lyoto Machida]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 December 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Because that wasn't the context of the argument, the context was whether that build was the most effective for that specific mech not assaults in general.


Head TAG is better because it minimizes exposure, that's why you never saw Jman with arm TAG instead.

Bishop Steiner, on 28 December 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

yeah, a very situational advantage (arm) vs an every match advantage (head). Though palystyle may affect it also, with someone who is used to "LRM-Brawling" maybe making the arm TAG more useful, but more often, I think avoiding LoS/Attention is the way to role... and for that, head TAG is pretty hard to beat.

I'm usually up close with my LRMs...I guess the head TAG is good for hill peeking with them but I'm probably too impatient for that. As long as I stick next to something more threatening (like a KDK or something), people usually choose to shoot at them. If they choose to shoot at me (the lower priority target), I just hope my buddies in the higher threat mechs next to me negate the guy shooting at me before I die or I sacrifice myself like a pawn for their bishop (no pun intended), etc.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

MacClearly, on 27 December 2016 - 11:33 PM, said:

Yeah you know more than the guys from MJ12... That's quite funny.

i do know that you guys took the wrong side gate and split your team then proceeded to get rollstomped... so you were super terrible, maybe some amazing comp team can pull off such bad tactics cause they are so good, you guys clearly didnt have even the hope of a chance anymore than a pure skittles pug team would. brutal to watch a 8-9 man IS team play at least as badly as a random pug team i am dropped with... without the benefit that i might be able to dissaude them from doing horrible tactics that results in the team getting rollstomped.

[Gyrok]

Tristan Winter, on 24 December 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

It's not like there's 4-6 players in every match failing miserably at LRMs and scratching their head about why they're never winning the game.

Actually...it is *exactly* like that...

[Gyrok]

The Lobsters, on 28 December 2016 - 01:30 AM, said:

What if I told you I run my BW with ac2's insted of ac5's................................................

What if I told you a RFL does that as well as, or, arguably better than, a BW...?

[MischiefSC]

Gyrok, on 28 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually...it is *exactly* like that...

Had a match last night, other team was like 6 LRM boats. QP match but still my team coordinated enough to ball up and roll them. Ended 12-2, only 3 people on the other team broke 200 damage.

What I loved was the red teams QQ about how the *rest* of their team was terrible.

I get 1K damage with a lbx/mg/lpl Jag sometimes. I have 1k+ matches in my 6 MG, 2 LPL, 2 srm6a LOLKrab.

That's not because the builds are good but because other players are usually terrible. Bad builds are feast/famine. That's how LRMs work. You do a ton of wasted damage but because terribads panic when the screen shakes you can just rain on them. You run into someone who's not in danger of choking on his own tongue, uses cover and cores you out and your LRMs are crap for the tonnage.

Using LRMs teaches you to play poorly. It's part of why bads tend to stay bad. They are literally practicing playing poorly.

[Gyrok]

MischiefSC, on 28 December 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Using LRMs teaches you to play poorly. It's part of why bads tend to stay bad. They are literally practicing playing poorly.

This should be a sig quote...seriously...

[Tristan Winter]

Gyrok, on 28 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Actually...it is *exactly* like that...

Nah. But people on the forum like to pretend that the solo queue is some elite arena where laservomit and LRM boats are crap because nobody in the MWOWC were using those builds. As if that matters in the puglife.

[El Bandito]

Tristan Winter, on 28 December 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

I don't understand what you're saying here. Did you completely misunderstand the message in my post?

My point is that LRMs are good in many situations, almost regardless of player skill (unless you're the top 1%) and people are pretending they're not.

Oh no, I understood. I'm just saying that LRM is bad weapon system on its own, and only becomes a real threat with quirked mechs--such as your 8R. PGI should just dump all those 10% missile velocity quirks and give all LRMs 200 m/s speed. Oh yeah, they are doing something similar in the new skill tree.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 December 2016 - 05:56 PM.

[MacClearly]

I_AM_ZUUL, on 28 December 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

i do know that you guys took the wrong side gate and split your team then proceeded to get rollstomped... so you were super terrible, maybe some amazing comp team can pull off such bad tactics cause they are so good, you guys clearly didnt have even the hope of a chance anymore than a pure skittles pug team would. brutal to watch a 8-9 man IS team play at least as badly as a random pug team i am dropped with... without the benefit that i might be able to dissaude them from doing horrible tactics that results in the team getting rollstomped.

[Redacted] You are talking about one of the best teams in FW with MJ12. You don't get that one bad wave can be made up and it is done all the time. Instead you ran in and reinforced and caused the team you were on to have to play 11 vs. 12.

[Redacted] What is in black and white is MJ12 and their players records and ranking on the leaderboards. These reflect how good these guys are [Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 29 December 2016 - 03:31 PM.
insults, ad hominem

[Lyoto Machida]

El Bandito, on 28 December 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Oh no, I understood. I'm just saying that LRM is bad weapon system on its own, and only becomes a real threat with quirked mechs--such as your 8R. PGI should just dump all those 10% missile velocity quirks and give all LRMs 200 m/s speed. Oh yeah, they are doing something similar in the new skill tree.

People cried about 175 m/s LRMs...would love to see 200 m/s ones, just for the tears.

[Tristan Winter]

El Bandito, on 28 December 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Oh no, I understood. I'm just saying that LRM is bad weapon system on its own, and only becomes a real threat with quirked mechs--such as your 8R. PGI should just dump all those 10% missile velocity quirks and give all LRMs 200 m/s speed. Oh yeah, they are doing something similar in the new skill tree.

Yes, I'm onboard with that. And of course, I'd go much further than that. Lower the trajectory, increase missile speed even more. And ideally, make people aim directly at the mech to maintain target lock.

Not only are IS LRMs dependent on quirks, but they also require boating, because bringing a single 10 ton LRM20 in the same way that you would bring a single ballistic weapon is just a moronic move.